NHS staff invitation to menopause workshop to people who menstruate!

[sunshineandhappy]

I received a generic email from the well being team at the nhs trust I am employed by inviting me to a managing menopause workshop which was open to 'people who menstruate or people who will go through the menopause'.
This was my reply I was disappointed to see the following phrase ‘those who menstruate or those who will go through the menopause ‘ in the below email. The correct phrase for the target audience should surely include the word women, even if the other phrasing needs to be used as well, as this clumsy phrasing, whilst appearing to be inclusive to a minority, is actually exclusive to the way the vast majority of the target audience for this seminar may feel. I do not want to be reduced to being a person who menstruates or a person who will go through the menopause, I am a woman, an adult human female. I hope my opinion will be considered in the spirit in which it is meant, as all groups matter, and all relevant individuals should be considered when generic emails are being sent to a large number of staff.'
We will wait to see whether I receive any response

@MichelleofzeResistance

It could be offensive not only because women and transmen are categorised together but because of who isn’t explicitly included in the category ie transwomen

Unfortunately though the biological realities of 52% of the human race cannot be concealed in each and every way to avoid cause a very tiny group of the population possible offense at the cost of everyone else. No one is intolerant of those who would prefer to be referred to in other ways. It is necessary for them to be tolerant too. Equal expectations. Equality of values.

This is exactly how I feel!

I am a woman about to go into menopause and I would literally eat my own shrivelled uterus than go to one of these workshops. You might as well stick a label on your head saying "old, useless and past it, pass me over for promotion"

Just as being female is the last thing I want to draw attention to in the workplace with silly pronouns, being an ageing woman is something I am even less eager to highlight as I need and want to keep working for at least another 15 years.

I am a woman about to go into menopause and I would literally eat my own shrivelled uterus than go to one of these workshops. You might as well stick a label on your head saying "old, useless and past it, pass me over for promotion"

Absolutely. It is not something you instinctively identify yourself with. One of the things with women and menopause is that many of them are unprepared. This is a combination of it only being referred to in hushed tones or derogatory fashion and most women ignoring the inevitable and getting on with life until it hits them and isn't what they expected. I don't even know when my mother reached menopause (a question doctor's seem to ask) and she isn't there to tell me now - and I am not alone in this.

Many women do not have periods because of contraceptives. Even if you have had a hysterectomy, if you still have ovaries there will be menopause and this might not be what you expect.

Mostly women have dealt with this stage of life as best they can with work. Some of them end up losing jobs/being managed out. There is always someone keen to take their place. This education is supposed to help them avoid this.

So the language being used is not inclusive of the women that it is aimed at.

To non English first language speakers these kind of posters must be very confusing. So already we are excluding them to accommodate the feelings of 0.1%. Then we exclude those who are excluded because the word woman hasn’t been included. Not very inclusive suddenly. Do they not have to do an impact equality assessment on this kind of stuff in the public sector?

So older women who have gone through menopause aren't allowed?

Do they not have to do an impact equality assessment on this kind of stuff in the public sector?

It's considered good practice to meet Public Sector Equality Duty, but some organisations don't understand that you are supposed to examine the impact on all nine protected characteristics, not just the one the policy is addressing.

some organisations don't understand that you are supposed to examine the impact on all nine protected characteristics, not just the one the policy is addressing.

And some have been actively encouraged to believe this, in training delivered by people who were political lobbyists with no qualifications, knowledge or experience in Equality legislation and the other characteristics, in public policy and duties, or in safeguarding. Failures in due diligence and failures in basic standards of knowledge and good practice has played an enormous part here.

*People who menstruate "or" who will go through the menopause.

It's not an either or thing, is it? If you are a menstruator, at some point presumably you will be a menopausist*

Medically, it is. For example if you had a hysterectomy but ovaries were left in situ, you will no longer menstruate but will still go through the menopause.

I suppose it will apply to those women who have stopped their periods with hormonal birth control too.

Medically, it is. For example if you had a hysterectomy but ovaries were left in situ, you will no longer menstruate but will still go through the menopause.

Yes, this was the case for my mum.

All if this language is based on assumptionss that people (women and girls) have to make.

People with a cervix
Most women and girls don't know for a fact they have one. I know you can go searching with fingers and feel for something like 'the tip of your nose'. In reality how many do this? And if it's high etc then you won't feel it. And you might feel something else and think that was it.

Women and girls assume they have a cervix because they know they're female. If they know what a cervix is, that is.

People with ovaries
Ditto

People who menstruate
This one is a big problem. How do you define it? It's not something we do continuously. If it's info for girls who have not started periods yet, you say people who will menstruate. But you don't know do you. Girls and women who exercise a lot often don't get them. There could be a medical problem. Etc.
And through life you can only say for sure that you will have another period if you're having one at the time. Loads of stuff stops them.
It's all just really hamfisted when it comes to the biological reality.

And most of these wordings depend on
Knowing that you are female
Understanding female biology and the names of the parts and functions
And then assuming in many cases that you have them because you know you're female

So what actually is the point?
It reduces us to reproductive functions, body parts (yay?)
It is language that many won't understand
It is based on assumptions about what bits you have rather than something you know, for a lot of them
And you are supposed to make these assumptions because you know you're female but that much more basic easy fact that encompasses the whole lot is apparently too outragous a term to use or allude to.

I note that none of the posters who are in favour of the language in the OP have responded to my post about how I think it doesn't really suit trans people at all, anyway. And what would be a much better, inclusive and more sensitive all round.

The people who are in favour of the language because of trans men and non binary females, have not apparently given a passing thought as to whether this session will work for them as a group.

Funny that isn't it.

People with a cervix
Most women and girls don't know for a fact they have one

I did my ante natal classes in a particularly deprived area. The knowledge of human anatomy was shocking- a teenage boy who was astonished to discover the baby came out the same way it went in- no I am not making that up. He thought they “cut it out”. Another man in his 20’s who walked out saying “I don’t even have a fucking perineum, why do I need to learn this shit”.

I wouldn’t be surprised if many don’t know they have a cervix.

This has been sent to the equality and diversity team of the trust. Thank you to everyone who has helped me( and whose phrases I have used) and everyone who has supported me with this. I'll see what response I get.

I am writing in response to emails currently being sent by the wellbeing team at the trust, which are aimed at increasing information regarding the menopause. I am extremely disappointed to see the target audience described as ‘those who menstruate or those who will go through the menopause ‘. I cannot understand why the word women is not included in this description. I feel excluded by this terminology, and the lack of the word women.
When I queried this, I was informed that ‘We know language can be an emotive subject and that gender language in particular has evolved a lot in recent times. We took advice from our Equality, Diversity and Inclusion specialists in relation to what terminology to use that reflected who these sessions were aimed at and had a lot of discussions before settling on this wording.

We appreciate it won’t suit everyone in the same way that saying they were for women won’t suit everyone - as indeed comments from staff reflected that when this was used previously.’

I cannot understand why the word women is not included in this description, together with the rather clumsy, and possibly exclusive wording of those who menstruate or those who will go through the menopause.
Isn’t it slightly odd that by falling over yourself to be inclusive you end up excluding the main body of people affected? If you really were scared of upsetting or excluding groups then why couldn’t it be written in a way to not even touch on descriptions?
“Menopause awareness course - if you are facing the menopause then you’re not alone, join our session for advice and support” if it is really not possible to use the phrase women at all?

I would refer you to the NHS service standard -

1. Make sure everyone can use the service

It states “Inclusive, accessible services are better for everyone. For example, using simple words helps people who are sick or stressed as well as people who have a learning disability.”

It says to avoid making any groups of people feel excluded, and to make sure everyone can use the service. Make sure people with different physical, mental health, social, cultural or learning needs can use your service, whether it's for the public or staff.

Inclusive means to take into account various different groups e.g. people for whom English is not their first language, people with poor literacy, who may not understand the phrase ‘people who menstruate’, but will understand the word ‘women.’

The NHS itself uses phrases such as “women and people with a cervix”.
“The menopause is when a woman stops having periods”
“Early menopause happens when a woman's periods stop before the age of 45”.
Page last reviewed: 02 February 2021
It's produced by NHS Digital yet manages to use the term "Woman" throughout. This is because the guidance has been interpreted correctly. The latter example having been updated only a couple of months ago so definitely showing the current thinking.

I feel very strongly that unfortunately the biological realities of 52% of the human race cannot be concealed in each and every way to avoid cause a very tiny group of the population possible offence at the cost of everyone else. No one should intolerant of those who would prefer to be referred to in other ways, but not at the cost of not referring to large groups of the population. It is necessary for them to be tolerant too. Equal expectations. Equality of values.
You don't take away my descriptor because someone else doesn't like it being applied to them, and it is extremely dehumanising to be referred to and reduced to the sum of my bodily functions. I am a woman, an adult human female, as are many staff in this trust. I am grateful that the wellbeing team offers support to a great many staff, but the way in which these services are advertised is not yet inclusive and reasonable. Are there similar rules for workshops which are primarily aimed at men, are they referred as being for prostate havers?
I await your comments with interest, and I hope that this wording can be revised to become more user friendly, for far more of staff.

Will they invite 'people with penises' to a talk on testicular cancer?

If only.

Excellent letter/email OP.

I really look forward to seeing the response you receive.

Thank you again for pursuing it.

Well said OP, thank you for standing up on this issue. I hope you see progress as a result.

@sunshineandhappy - well done OP , that’s a marvellous email - says everything and more, just the right tone !

You don't take away my descriptor because someone else doesn't like it being applied to them, and it is extremely dehumanising to be referred to and reduced to the sum of my bodily functions

This is brilliant @sunshineandhappy I hope you receive an equally thoughtful response. And that they amend their language.

brilliant letter OP. I really hope it makes them think about what they're doing

This email is not my own work. It is the work of many thoughtful and eloquent Mumsnetters, I just put it all together.

OP incredible work!

Fab letter, OP. I hope you get a good response

Good luck. that’s an excellent email.

Well done! Look forward to hearing how they respond.