NHS staff invitation to menopause workshop to people who menstruate!

[sunshineandhappy]

I received a generic email from the well being team at the nhs trust I am employed by inviting me to a managing menopause workshop which was open to 'people who menstruate or people who will go through the menopause'.
This was my reply I was disappointed to see the following phrase ‘those who menstruate or those who will go through the menopause ‘ in the below email. The correct phrase for the target audience should surely include the word women, even if the other phrasing needs to be used as well, as this clumsy phrasing, whilst appearing to be inclusive to a minority, is actually exclusive to the way the vast majority of the target audience for this seminar may feel. I do not want to be reduced to being a person who menstruates or a person who will go through the menopause, I am a woman, an adult human female. I hope my opinion will be considered in the spirit in which it is meant, as all groups matter, and all relevant individuals should be considered when generic emails are being sent to a large number of staff.'
We will wait to see whether I receive any response

Top post, @NiceGerbil

Thanks

Just put this on another thread but think it applies here as well. The last bit anyway. The first bit will be rather lacking in context!

''To label women - white, middle-class, privileged, frothing, young mother, old mother, hysterical, fear mom gering, complacent, prudish, ranting, mean, middle aged, radical, pearl clutching - any old contradictory rubbish.'

There is a real thing that I talk about a lot about how society in general often sees the default male as people and everyone who is not default male in terms of types, stereotypes. This very much applies to women.

Some groups above and more generally stuff like
Old dear
Jail bait
Milf
Ball breaker
Neurotic
Etc

There's often confusion and unhappiness when women or girls step out of what they have been labelled.

It also splits us into sub groups that society and the media etc like to try and pit against each other. And not really a cohesive group with similar experiences worries etc.

Just occurred to me that the new approach is more of the same.

People with cervixes
Menstruators
Pregnant people
Etc etc

interesting.

And I wonder whether the insistence that we shouldn't mind comes from an underlying idea that women already are not really connected, but are lots of sub groups. So why the fuss.

Hmmmmm.'

OP, you've given me a bit of a push to stick my head above the parapet and raise it. Thanks.

well done and good luck!

@NiceGerbil

I posted earlier to point out that

Menopause is still a topic that is not really discussed, although it's starting to be a bit more now.

The sensitivities around the topic do not seem to have been considered by the language the OP has complained about.

The best known thing about menopause is that your periods stop and that marks the end of your reproductive life.
For many women there is a lot of emotional overhead with this transition.
Some women have early menopause, limiting their childbearing years before they were expecting it. This can be a very big deal for them.
To say it's for people who menstruate when the whole point it it's the ceasing of that is also insensitive. Because it's defined by not menstruating any more. For women in peri they don't know if their next period will come or not. So are they menstruators or not?
Is a woman who does not have periods because she is ill, doing a lot of exercise, etc a menstruator? Periods are not an ongoing thing. They are unpredictable and we go through stages where they can stop. Come back. Etc. 'people who menstruate' is biologically illiterate as it does not reflect women's reality at all.

There is also the fact that there is a whole bunch of social judgement and bias around the menopause.

Eg
She's probably menopausal (emotional)
That no longer being fertile renders women pointless/ invisible to a fair extent to many people especially men
That attractiveness in women is pushed as very important in society. And it's linked with youth/ fertility. For many the transition is unwelcome and concern about what life will be like as they move into the 3rd stage of life (that only applies to women) is not uncommon
Women often hide at work if they are struggling as they fear losing their jobs

This is a massive sensitive area. The language is important.

The language used by the ops employer has taken zero account of the feelings of the vast vast vast majority of the group they are targeting.

Yes, very thoughtful post. Thank you.

SohoOrigami

I think things like that happen because lots of things especially employers know it's important to be inclusive of trans people.

However they don't really know what the language means/ are putting things in without thinking about it etc.

And so end up with all sorts of random groupings.

Of course the fact that it keeps changing all the time and is not logical doesn't help.

Do you know who is providing the workshop? Is it NHS in house, or an outsided agency?

Here is a question.
What percentage of the population have a low level of literacy in English as compared to the percentage of people who are trans?

That’s a good question.

16.4% of adults in England, or 7.1 million people, can be described as having 'very poor literacy skills.' They can understand short straightforward texts on familiar topics accurately and independently, and obtain information from everyday sources, but reading information from unfamiliar sources, or on unfamiliar topics, could cause problems. This is also known as being functionally illiterate

literacytrust.org.uk/parents-and-families/adult-literacy/

That’s a much higher percentage than I thought

I’m sure in this brave new world of “inclusive” language they can figure out if they’re a person who menstruates, or a cervix haver, if they just try a bit harder.

Loads of people have a reading age of around 8. I saw the stat at work, sure it's on Google.

On a thread ages ago the point that loads of people wouldn't know what a cervix was or whether they had one

Was countered with, well education needs to improve then.

So that's one perspective

NiceGerbil yes, I think that sums them up. It's the same women's network that sent out a message about violence against women after the Sarah Everard vigil and included the line "to our male colleagues, we know it's not you"
We're an organisation of thousands: statistically speaking it's definitely some of them

Eresh thanks! It's ridiculous that I'm actually nervous about it, isn't it. As someone said on another thread the other day, the workplace doesn't feel very inclusive of me on these issues

a message about violence against women after the Sarah Everard vigil and included the line "to our male colleagues, we know it's not you"

indeed. Why would they couch it in those terms? As you point out, statistically it's unlikely to be true.

the workplace doesn't feel very inclusive of me on these issues

No, but our feelings aren't supposed to matter. They do

@SohoOrigami

My workplace women's network recently put out an invite to workshops on menopause: one was for everyone, specifically designed for managers and colleagues who haven't experienced menopause to understand the possible impact at work on those who are going through it. The other was for women to discuss their experiences and questions about menopause, which specified "for women including trans women"

I hesitated to query it because my workplace is woke 101. But it makes no sense at all - it specifically doesn't include trans men who will experience menopause, but does include trans women who won't?

OP, you've given me a bit of a push to stick my head above the parapet and raise it. Thanks.

Good luck Soho. I definitely understand your reticence, for what it’s worth.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Women are not suffering

I think if a trans person was discussing feeling dehumanised, excluded, reduced to body parts, their choice of self definition and identity being rejected (exactly as women are here) you'd be quite vocal about the suffering involved and the importance of others caring about it.

Either these values apply equally to all, or what you're arguing for is just straight forward sexist discrimination against women.

Very well said - I completely agree.

@SohoOrigami

NiceGerbil yes, I think that sums them up. It's the same women's network that sent out a message about violence against women after the Sarah Everard vigil and included the line "to our male colleagues, we know it's not you" We're an organisation of thousands: statistically speaking it's definitely some of them

Eresh thanks! It's ridiculous that I'm actually nervous about it, isn't it. As someone said on another thread the other day, the workplace doesn't feel very inclusive of me on these issues

What the actual fuck?

Are you serious?

Jesus Christ. What are they thinking?

@MeltsAway

Would it really matter if a non-menstruator turned up at the menopause workshop anyway? Maybe they want to support the menstruators in their lives.

Well, you know, when I was peri-menopausal, I wouldn't have minded if a woman who'd experienced menopause* came to talk, and I could ask about stuff. But if a man (sex, not gender) of any sort were there, I just wouldn't talk; I wouldn't feel comfortable.

Why should men be tourists in women's lives?

• Note: a woman who'd been through a significant life experience, not a "non-menstruator"

Same. But actually, I would hope that some non menstruators of the female kind (ex menstruators?) were there maybe as instructors because otherwise how to know what to expect with menopause?

Maybe we do need to have words that emphasise biology more. For example, a word for a woman who has not given birth (childfree and childless are both ungreat in my opinion because of mothers whose children have died). Or women who have not yet been through menopause. There used to be words like barren, spinster and crone but they were offensive. Is that because the ideas themselves are offensive?

For example, what if you wanted a midwife who had herself given birth. Or a menopause instructor who had been through menopause herself. Is that okay, or is it only okay to ask for a woman and not specify a subtype?

Can you name and shame?

If it's a large employer they won't know it's you. Although understand if not obviously.

I genuinely can't believe that.

Did I miss s thread about it?

That's grotesque.

Even when a woman is kidnapped and murdered it's really important to say NAMALT and more than that state that all the men who work there are safe as houses? Statistically that's not going to be true is it.

Bloody hell.

Doona I would prefer you to my post at 1835 about the issues with breaking us into groups in general.

I would also mention that women and girls have been reduced to parts by men and society forever.

The one with the legs
Oi nice tits
Gash
Go out get some pussy
Dried up/ shriveled up (refers to post menopausal vagina)
And so on

Yes, I read it, Nice Gerbil. I don't think we should assume that men are responsible for any divisions between women, though. Sluts vs Madonna, maybe. But not mothers vs non-mothers or SAHMs and employed mothers. Or Black and white women. Or poor and rich even. We are capable of observing our own differences.
We need to. Feminism can end up racist if we don't, for example because we can't assume that the white female experience is the universal female experience etc.

Yes, I agree about the body parts. This new trend to refer to menstruators or the bepenised is awful and regressive. My personal least favourite is people with vaginas as if the hole between my legs is my most important quality.

'There used to be words like barren, spinster and crone but they were offensive. Is that because the ideas themselves are offensive?'

Is this a serious question?

I think some women's history and what's happening around the world would be useful to you.

Women's value has been linked to their fertility everywhere and for as long as we know.

The words you suggested are used as insults because they are saying that you have no value to men/ are not attractive to men/ have failed to find a man.

For some reason men pretty much always use these things as go to insults about women/ girls. Whether it's just a consequence of the societal messages, ego, or what. I don't know.

But certainly if a man eg approaches you in the pub and you say you're not interested and he's one of the many who don't take it well. Then more often than not it's stuff like you're rough anyway, d*ke etc.

You must know this surely?

'I don't think we should assume that men are responsible for any divisions between women, though'

Hahaha.

On the 'barren' thing. Women are still killed around the world sometimes for not producing a baby/ producing babies of the 'wrong' sex.

Yes, I do know those things, NiceGerbil. I'm not talking about the male perspective, but about the distinctions that women make themselves.