NHS staff invitation to menopause workshop to people who menstruate!

[sunshineandhappy]

I received a generic email from the well being team at the nhs trust I am employed by inviting me to a managing menopause workshop which was open to 'people who menstruate or people who will go through the menopause'.
This was my reply I was disappointed to see the following phrase ‘those who menstruate or those who will go through the menopause ‘ in the below email. The correct phrase for the target audience should surely include the word women, even if the other phrasing needs to be used as well, as this clumsy phrasing, whilst appearing to be inclusive to a minority, is actually exclusive to the way the vast majority of the target audience for this seminar may feel. I do not want to be reduced to being a person who menstruates or a person who will go through the menopause, I am a woman, an adult human female. I hope my opinion will be considered in the spirit in which it is meant, as all groups matter, and all relevant individuals should be considered when generic emails are being sent to a large number of staff.'
We will wait to see whether I receive any response

women, and anyone female at birth.” Done

Yes that’s another good way of saying it

The fact my last post was deleted entirely proves my point.

Here we go - the deletions have begun. The people who fear women's speech have found this thread.

If people would cover it and everyone should put up and shut up, then woman would equally well cover it. But the fact is that some people prefer not to call themselves a woman.

It's not difficult. Apply your own standards equally and it'll work just fine: if women can tolerate 'women and TM/NB/OFAB/any other titles people would prefer and find respectful and inclusive' then everyone else can tolerate female people who want to use the word woman for themselves alongside their own chosen words.

if women can tolerate 'women and TM/NB/OFAB/any other titles people would prefer and find respectful and inclusive' then everyone else can tolerate female people who want to use the word woman for themselves alongside their own chosen words.

Yes

@RabbitOfCaerbannog

if women can tolerate 'women and TM/NB/OFAB/any other titles people would prefer and find respectful and inclusive' then everyone else can tolerate female people who want to use the word woman for themselves alongside their own chosen words.

Yes

Yep

Only just seen this thread.

Well done OP for sticking your head above the parapet on this. And some great advice from other wise owls too.

@AssassinatedBeauty

What on earth is wrong with saying that the workshop is for women and others who menstruate and/or will go through menopause?

Exactly this.

@JellySlice

Here we go - the deletions have begun. The people who fear women's speech have found this thread.

Indeed, my post was factual and politely worded. It contained no slurs or generalisations and didn't name any poster. It's difficult to see which talk guideline it broke. But still it was deleted.

The self appointed monitors of this board are deliberately making this space a place where women cannot discuss their own concerns and lived experiences. There is a reason for that.

I’d like to know if anyone they ran it past is actually a transman? Or are they just asking non trans, woke individuals what they think a transman might like.

Because I can’t imagine transmen would like being referred to in this way either.

Does that mean trans women can come to these classes if it says women?

Well only if they are in complete denial about themselves or are being bellends and wanting to wind up women.

I’ve never known someone who works along side the NHS with so much free time on their hands...

@CovidCorvid

I’d like to know if anyone they ran it past is actually a transman? Or are they just asking non trans, woke individuals what they think a transman might like.

Because I can’t imagine transmen would like being referred to in this way either.

It’s not the transmen they are worried about. It’s the women who have never menstruated due to not having the correct biology.

@EastWestWhosBest last thread I was on they were a science teacher.

I’d have thought they’re worried that a biological woman who now identifies as a man wouldn’t want to be called a woman. I think that’s who they’re trying to include.

Can’t imagine they’re trying to include biological males no matter what they identify as ...they won’t be having a menopause. And yes I know the likes of stupid Yanniv is convinced they have periods. But don’t think the nhs as an employer would pander to such nonsense.

@Sophoclesthefox

Women who’ve had total hysterectomies don’t have a cervix. They do, however go through menopause.

A workshop aimed at “people with cervices experiencing the menopause” specifically excludes women who have had total hysterectomies.

Let’s just be clear about who matters here and who, clearly, doesn’t.

Using language like ‘menstruators’, ‘people with a uterus’ and ‘people with a cervix’ is upsetting, offensive as well as confusing for women who have had a hysterectomy.

Those women still go through a menopause, often many years after they have stopped menstruating. Some of them still need cervical screening, .

I would like the nhs to #bekind to women who have undergone major surgery and not treat them as if they are no longer women.

Just to be clear agreeing with Sophoclesthefox above

So no women who are on contraception where periods stop then? Or indeed as pointed out, who have had a hysterectomy.

You see, ASugarr, there are many issues that affect women - adult human females - and we need that word left as it is, clearly understood by every English speaker, so that we have a name for our group.

Yes.

I think several threads are doing sterling work today in exposing the misogynistic assumptions underlying the push for "inclusive" language.

If you use language to support the wellbeing of transmen but this then means that refugee women don't understand, or women with learning difficulties don't understand, then it's not really inclusive. Using language as simple and straightforward as possible is really important. Saying "people who menstruate" instead of "women and..." really does exclude people.

Well said. And then we see that it isn't actually about being inclusive to the most vulnerable in society at all, it's about pushing a personal ideology.

Perhaps there could be two workshops: one for women which was female only, and the other one for males of all genders, non binary people of both sexes, and self defined "cis" women who would surely be happier in a fully inclusive space?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If you use language to support the wellbeing of transmen but this then means that refugee women don't understand, or women with learning difficulties don't understand, then it's not really inclusive. Using language as simple and straightforward as possible is really important. Saying "people who menstruate" instead of "women and..." really does exclude people.

Well said. And then we see that it isn't actually about being inclusive to the most vulnerable in society at all, it's about pushing a personal ideology.

In a nutshell.

And there's an elephant in the room, that some of the reason for the intolerance of female people retaining the word 'woman' in association with any health need that is biologically specific, is not really coming from anyone female.

Perhaps there could be two workshops: one for women which was female only, and the other one for males of all genders, non binary people of both sexes, and self defined "cis" women who would surely be happier in a fully inclusive space?

My apologies, I meant to say men of both sexes and males of all genders.

I posted earlier to point out that

Menopause is still a topic that is not really discussed, although it's starting to be a bit more now.

The sensitivities around the topic do not seem to have been considered by the language the OP has complained about.

The best known thing about menopause is that your periods stop and that marks the end of your reproductive life.
For many women there is a lot of emotional overhead with this transition.
Some women have early menopause, limiting their childbearing years before they were expecting it. This can be a very big deal for them.
To say it's for people who menstruate when the whole point it it's the ceasing of that is also insensitive. Because it's defined by not menstruating any more. For women in peri they don't know if their next period will come or not. So are they menstruators or not?
Is a woman who does not have periods because she is ill, doing a lot of exercise, etc a menstruator? Periods are not an ongoing thing. They are unpredictable and we go through stages where they can stop. Come back. Etc. 'people who menstruate' is biologically illiterate as it does not reflect women's reality at all.

There is also the fact that there is a whole bunch of social judgement and bias around the menopause.

Eg
She's probably menopausal (emotional)
That no longer being fertile renders women pointless/ invisible to a fair extent to many people especially men
That attractiveness in women is pushed as very important in society. And it's linked with youth/ fertility. For many the transition is unwelcome and concern about what life will be like as they move into the 3rd stage of life (that only applies to women) is not uncommon
Women often hide at work if they are struggling as they fear losing their jobs

This is a massive sensitive area. The language is important.

The language used by the ops employer has taken zero account of the feelings of the vast vast vast majority of the group they are targeting.

My workplace women's network recently put out an invite to workshops on menopause: one was for everyone, specifically designed for managers and colleagues who haven't experienced menopause to understand the possible impact at work on those who are going through it. The other was for women to discuss their experiences and questions about menopause, which specified "for women including trans women"

I hesitated to query it because my workplace is woke 101. But it makes no sense at all - it specifically doesn't include trans men who will experience menopause, but does include trans women who won't?

OP, you've given me a bit of a push to stick my head above the parapet and raise it. Thanks.