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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Coming out as gender critical

117 replies

terfypants · 13/04/2021 18:26

I'm about to send this message to one of my oldest friends, and am terrified. She is in Canada and is something of a trans rights activist (I'm in UK), and so far I have remained silent when the issue has come up... but its putting a strain on the friendship, so this feels a bit make or break (I'm not expecting her to come round to my way of thinking, but I want to be able to talk about it). Before I hit send, I thought I'd share it here, in the hope that I might get some feedback on tone and content... I found it very difficult to write.

I’m more than a little nervous about broaching this topic, knowing what a polarising issue it is, but increasingly my silence has felt dishonest so – in the hope that this might result in a stimulating discussion and frank exchange of ideas – here goes.
Gender ideology and trans rights activism. It is clear that it is a subject close to your heart, and it is evident that we have very different perspectives on the issue. Given that I think on most things our politics are pretty closely aligned and I know you to be intelligent, thoughtful and compassionate I am genuinely interested in understanding your take on what it means to be trans, and what that means for the rest of society (I’m thinking about the law here, but also things like the practice of stating one’s pronouns).
I’m struggling to succinctly sum up my own feelings on the matter, as there are so many facets to this and I don’t know where to begin, but I guess at root it boils down to the fact that I simply don’t believe we have an innate gender identity or that it is possible to be born in the wrong body, from which starting point much of trans rights activism (in its current incarnation) crumbles. In particular I find the notion of ‘trans children’ deeply disturbing, and cannot see how affirming gender non-conforming children as members of the opposite sex is anything other than sexist, homophobic and cruel.
So what do I think?
That one’s sex is fixed and cannot change. It is also, in the vast majority of situations, irrelevant and should have no bearing on how one is expected to dress or behave. Where it is relevant, though, it is reasonable to draw distinctions on sex based lines – I can’t personally get too worked up about toilets (you know me – I’ll piss anywhere), but in relation to prisons, sports and initiatives intended to counter the under-representation of women in specific arenas it is absolutely appropriate to exclude men, however they identify.
That gender is a useful theoretical tool for analysing how relations between the sexes are structured and behaviour understood. It is not a property of individuals and is not fixed. I would much rather work towards a society in which gender stereotypes are dismantled than one in which they are reified to the point that one’s ‘gender identity’ is seen as more authentic than one’s sex.
That there are people who feel very uncomfortable in their bodies, and dearly wish that they were the opposite sex. This might manifest as feeling that they are ‘really’ a man / woman despite their biology, but this doesn’t make it true – I don’t even know what it means to ‘feel like a woman’ other than by referencing my female biology. For some people the distress of having the ‘wrong’ body might be alleviated by presenting as a member of the opposite sex and modifying their body so it more closely resembles the body they wish they had, but ultimately it is incumbent on everyone to come to terms with the reality of who they are, and it is not reasonable to expect the rest of society to structure itself around maintaining a fiction.
As I said I’m nervous of saying this, and am well aware that attempts at frank and open discussion on the subject don’t always end well. But the more I read on either side of this debate, the more I feel that in many cases people are talking at cross purposes to each other, and that, if only we could get past the knee-jerk reactions and defensiveness on both sides, we may find there is more agreement than we realise. In that spirit, I would love to hear your perspective on some of this stuff.

OP posts:
GNCQ · 13/04/2021 18:36

Do you have a context upon which this message is relevant or is it out of the blue?

I wouldn't send such a message simply out of the blue to someone I want to keep as a friend.
I'm going to make an analogy here. My aunt is a born again Christian, my cousin is a conspiracy theorist. I wouldn't suddenly message either of them to say (essentially) "I believe the opposite to you.". That would almost certainly lead to the breakdown of your relationship.

Of course such a message would be the right thing to do if the recipient has asked for your opinion or for help in understanding the sex/gender debate.

Buckingafout · 13/04/2021 18:40

I think you have written up your thoughts very well. However as pp said, it's a bit much all in one go
Maybe start with the first couple of paragraphs where you ask for your friend's viewpoint. You can send the rest later when you've opened up the conversation a bit more, ifykwim.

GNCQ · 13/04/2021 18:41

In other words perhaps if you start by saying "in relation to your latest post on Facebook about XYZ I felt compelled to let you know that..."

InvisibleDragon · 13/04/2021 18:46

I'd it possible to talk over the phone rather than in a message?

I've successfully got through a conversation with a friend about puberty blockers in which we managed to disagree civilly and move closer to each other's perspective.

I personally find it easier to do that in conversation than by email.

Sophoclesthefox · 13/04/2021 18:58

I do find these conversations go much better in person. While you’ve worded it beautifully, if your friend is like any of my transactivist friends (yep, I have several Grin )it is going to feel like an attack anyway. She’s probably going to feel like you’re questioning her credentials as a caring, liberal, supportive person who is standing up for a persecuted minority.

Unfortunately, there isn’t a way round that, but the closest I have got is

  • one issue at a time, and keep the focus on that. So pick medicalising children, or sports, but not both.
  • in person if possible (with her so far away, this is obviously not a 2021 conversation)
  • ask questions, don’t make statements.
  • stress the positive, like you’ve done with underscoring how you know she’s a good, caring person.
  • be prepared that this might just be a no go area for both of you, but believe the friendship can survive that, and act as if it will. It is possible to just park it, filed under “I’d rather be happy than right”.
  • don’t, above all else, do this on Facebook.

Good luck. I hope you can find a way forward where you both feel understood and loved. For myself, I feel I have to carry a much bigger load of biting my tongue, feeling upset anc angry, and being diplomatic anyway than my trans ally friends do, but I thought it through, and if the price of having them in my life is not sharing this part of it, then I’ll reluctantly just accept that (other people won’t and that’s fine too).

imhereforthesanity · 13/04/2021 19:12

I think you have written your points across really well. I agree that if it is just emailed out of the blue then it might seem a bit full on, but I guess you have had some conversation about this prior, be it on social media or phone. Good luck though, I have someone that I have wondered about reaching out too and you sum up my thoughts perfectly.

terfypants · 13/04/2021 19:30

Hmmm. It would be somewhat out of the blue, though prompted
by a couple of recent posts on facebook. It is a topic she frequently posts about and is pretty active (in a professional capacity as well as personally) in campaigning for trans rights in Canada. Last May she sent me a link to an 'Open letter from cisgender women to Liz Truss' in support of reforming the Gender Recognition Act, in which the 'transphobic hate groups such as WPUK, Transgender Trend and the LGB alliance' were referenced... it was being circulated by a friend of hers. I didn't respond at the time, but it was clear she assumed that I would be supportive.
Maybe I could send something to her as a reply to that message. I think you're right that it needs toning down, or perhaps being made a bit shorter so it is more about starting a conversation. I don't want to lose the friendship, but wouldn't be heartbroken if that was the outcome, particularly as I feel currently that there is this massive elephant in the room that needs acknowledging.
I find myself struck dumb whenever the issue comes up (not just with her) so part of the purpose of this from my point of view is to practice talking / writing about it so that I have the words to do so in other contexts... it's only a matter of time before I am asked to put pronouns in my signature at work, for example, and I want to be able to explain my position if called upon to do so.

OP posts:
terfypants · 13/04/2021 19:33

Just catching up with more replies. Thanks all for some very sound advice, which I will take on board. I'm going to sleep on it, and then reword as a clear response to something specific, and keeping it shorter and more obviously a conversation opener.

OP posts:
FemaleAndLearning · 13/04/2021 19:39

Perhaps a bit shorter? Reads like an essay. Say too that you've seen a few posts they have written which has prompted the email.

Personally I think trying to change the 'converted' opinions is futile and time is better spent on those who are new to the subject.

ArabellaScott · 13/04/2021 19:53

Agree with Female. I would avoid this subject with anyone so entrenched they are engaged in 'activism'.

ArabellaScott · 13/04/2021 19:54

And I would always err on the side of keeping things light, short and bland.

jul26m · 13/04/2021 21:13

@terfypants

Hmmm. It would be somewhat out of the blue, though prompted by a couple of recent posts on facebook. It is a topic she frequently posts about and is pretty active (in a professional capacity as well as personally) in campaigning for trans rights in Canada. Last May she sent me a link to an 'Open letter from cisgender women to Liz Truss' in support of reforming the Gender Recognition Act, in which the 'transphobic hate groups such as WPUK, Transgender Trend and the LGB alliance' were referenced... it was being circulated by a friend of hers. I didn't respond at the time, but it was clear she assumed that I would be supportive. Maybe I could send something to her as a reply to that message. I think you're right that it needs toning down, or perhaps being made a bit shorter so it is more about starting a conversation. I don't want to lose the friendship, but wouldn't be heartbroken if that was the outcome, particularly as I feel currently that there is this massive elephant in the room that needs acknowledging. I find myself struck dumb whenever the issue comes up (not just with her) so part of the purpose of this from my point of view is to practice talking / writing about it so that I have the words to do so in other contexts... it's only a matter of time before I am asked to put pronouns in my signature at work, for example, and I want to be able to explain my position if called upon to do so.
What’s the issue with pronouns in email signature? Would be quite useful to know if, for example, “Alex” or “Sam” wanted to be referred to as he/him or she/her
GNCQ · 13/04/2021 21:33

What’s the issue with pronouns in email signature? Would be quite useful to know if, for example, “Alex” or “Sam” wanted to be referred to as he/him or she/her

Oh give over. Anyone who spoke to Sam or Alex on the phone or saw them, will immediately know their sex. Your gender identity is largely irrelevant to any given situation, and misgendering is really not the crime of the century.

Gender ideology myth number 29
Because some people force counter intuitive pronouns on others, that means everyone has to proclaim their pronouns.

Links to gender ideology myth number 11, because some people look androgynous/have androgynous names....

GNCQ · 13/04/2021 21:33

^ Gah missed off the bolding for quote at top part of post

jul26m · 13/04/2021 22:02

@GNCQ

What’s the issue with pronouns in email signature? Would be quite useful to know if, for example, “Alex” or “Sam” wanted to be referred to as he/him or she/her

Oh give over. Anyone who spoke to Sam or Alex on the phone or saw them, will immediately know their sex. Your gender identity is largely irrelevant to any given situation, and misgendering is really not the crime of the century.

Gender ideology myth number 29
Because some people force counter intuitive pronouns on others, that means everyone has to proclaim their pronouns.

Links to gender ideology myth number 11, because some people look androgynous/have androgynous names....

Well, as someone with a very unisex name, I am constantly being referred to as male in emails. Sure not the “crime of the century” as you describe it, but would be much nicer for me at work if my correct pronouns were used. I don’t really see how having pronouns in emails negatively affects anyone tbh.
terfypants · 13/04/2021 22:07

What’s the issue with pronouns in email signature? Would be quite useful to know if, for example, “Alex” or “Sam” wanted to be referred to as he/him or she/her
If it is important to Alex or Sam that email correspondents know their sex, I daresay they could find a way of communicating that in emails they send.
Personally, I couldn't care Leeds if purple know my sex, and don't think that the pronouns other people use to describe me are for me to decide, and so when, as I inevitably will before long, am asked to put 'my' pronouns in my email signature, I want to be able to explain clearly why I will not be doing so.

OP posts:
jul26m · 13/04/2021 22:16

@terfypants

What’s the issue with pronouns in email signature? Would be quite useful to know if, for example, “Alex” or “Sam” wanted to be referred to as he/him or she/her If it is important to Alex or Sam that email correspondents know their sex, I daresay they could find a way of communicating that in emails they send. Personally, I couldn't care Leeds if purple know my sex, and don't think that the pronouns other people use to describe me are for me to decide, and so when, as I inevitably will before long, am asked to put 'my' pronouns in my email signature, I want to be able to explain clearly why I will not be doing so.
I’m confused by your comment that you don’t think that the pronouns other people use to describe you are for you to decide... does that mean if you preferred to be she/her but I called you he/him, you’d be ok with that?
jul26m · 13/04/2021 22:17

@terfypants

What’s the issue with pronouns in email signature? Would be quite useful to know if, for example, “Alex” or “Sam” wanted to be referred to as he/him or she/her If it is important to Alex or Sam that email correspondents know their sex, I daresay they could find a way of communicating that in emails they send. Personally, I couldn't care Leeds if purple know my sex, and don't think that the pronouns other people use to describe me are for me to decide, and so when, as I inevitably will before long, am asked to put 'my' pronouns in my email signature, I want to be able to explain clearly why I will not be doing so.
Also what is your reason for not doing so? I asked before but you didn’t say
334bu · 13/04/2021 23:21

* I don’t really see how having pronouns in emails negatively affects anyone tbh.*

It is very transphobic insisting that transgender or non binary people should out themselves by demanding that they declare their preferred pronouns.
Insisting on this is totally contrary to the Yogyakarta Principles.

WarOnWomen · 13/04/2021 23:33

I use to work in a company where I had lots of email and telephone contact with international students, mostly from south east Asia. I don't have an English name and I cant even tell you the number of times people asked for Mr War or wrote Mr War in emails, as opposed to Ms Women. C'est la vie.

NancyDrawed · 14/04/2021 08:23

I know this isn't in the same league, but I have a friend who is pro fox hunting, whereas I am anti. We have discussed our reasons for our respective views. I respect her right to hold a different view to mine and we have agreed to disagree on that issue and now we don't discuss it.

GC v TRA is clearly a much more volatile area, but do you think you could get to a similar place with your friend, or will she not respect your right to an opposing view?

terfypants · 14/04/2021 08:48

I’m confused by your comment that you don’t think that the pronouns other people use to describe you are for you to decide... does that mean if you preferred to be she/her but I called you he/him, you’d be ok with that?
But I don't 'prefer' to be she/ her. I am female, and people who have met / spoken to me generally choose female pronouns when referring to me. When they don't, which has happened, I'm OK with it, yes.

OP posts:
GNCQ · 14/04/2021 08:54

What’s the issue with pronouns in email signature? Would be quite useful to know if, for example, “Alex” or “Sam” wanted to be referred to as he/him or she/her

22:17 terfypants if it is important to Alex or Sam that email correspondents know their sex, I daresay they could find a way of communicating that in emails they send.
Personally, I couldn't care Leeds [less] if purple [people] know my sex, and don't think that the pronouns other people use to describe me are for me to decide, and so when, as I inevitably will before long, am asked to put 'my' pronouns in my email signature, I want to be able to explain clearly why I will not be doing so.

Also what is your reason for not doing so? I asked before but you didn’t say

Refer back to gender ideology myth 29.
I'll paraphrase it for you: Not everyone feels comfortable putting pronouns in their email signature. No one should be coerced into doing so, nor interrogated as to their reason why they are uncomfortable with doing so.

However since terfypants is looking for a swift way to explain reasons for not going along with the convention, I'll try to offer some advice.

There's always the "gender free" option. When you're free from gender, whatever pronouns anyone wants to use is up to the beholder, (because it'll be basically obvious). Or you could "check woke" the request.
I've stolen this from another thread because it was brilliant.

20:00 ArabellaScott

Refer them to Yogyakarta principle #6:

'Everyone, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, is entitled to the enjoyment of privacy without arbitrary or unlawful interference, including with regard to their family, home or correspondence as well as to protection from unlawful attacks on their honour and reputation. The right to privacy ordinarily includes the choice to disclose or not to disclose information relating to one’s sexual orientation or gender identity, as well as decisions and choices regarding both one’s own body and consensual sexual and other relations with others.'
- checkwoke.

No need to disclose your pronouns in either situation, and you're still woke.

oldwomanwhoruns · 14/04/2021 08:59

How about the open, guileless approach, OP? Something like:

re your FB post - Have you had issues in Canada perhaps, where this simple approach just isn't working out? Here in England, there have been tremendous problems in the prisons!! You'd think that it wouldn't have been an issue, but the tw in female prisons here have been assaulting and raping their fellow inmates! (ref the Karen white debacle etc). Golly it's all clearly not as simple as I first thought! What do you do about these sorts of issue, over there in Canada?

She may, of course, realise that you are taking the piss a bit. But she probably will take it all at face value, and it might just open the conversation?

That's how I opened the conversation with my mate, but I started on sport as it was the most relevant issue for him.

Best of luck ! Flowers

Babdoc · 14/04/2021 09:01

jul26m, you are very fortunate that your email recipients think you are male. If you insist on female pronouns, they will immediately and subconsciously downgrade your contributions as “just a woman”.
It has been shown that the same email with a male name gets a faster and more respectful response than with a female one.
So forcing women to put female pronouns at work will increase sexist discrimination against them. Why should we subscribe to that? At present we can sign off with initials and surname. Long may it continue.