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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Coming out as gender critical

117 replies

terfypants · 13/04/2021 18:26

I'm about to send this message to one of my oldest friends, and am terrified. She is in Canada and is something of a trans rights activist (I'm in UK), and so far I have remained silent when the issue has come up... but its putting a strain on the friendship, so this feels a bit make or break (I'm not expecting her to come round to my way of thinking, but I want to be able to talk about it). Before I hit send, I thought I'd share it here, in the hope that I might get some feedback on tone and content... I found it very difficult to write.

I’m more than a little nervous about broaching this topic, knowing what a polarising issue it is, but increasingly my silence has felt dishonest so – in the hope that this might result in a stimulating discussion and frank exchange of ideas – here goes.
Gender ideology and trans rights activism. It is clear that it is a subject close to your heart, and it is evident that we have very different perspectives on the issue. Given that I think on most things our politics are pretty closely aligned and I know you to be intelligent, thoughtful and compassionate I am genuinely interested in understanding your take on what it means to be trans, and what that means for the rest of society (I’m thinking about the law here, but also things like the practice of stating one’s pronouns).
I’m struggling to succinctly sum up my own feelings on the matter, as there are so many facets to this and I don’t know where to begin, but I guess at root it boils down to the fact that I simply don’t believe we have an innate gender identity or that it is possible to be born in the wrong body, from which starting point much of trans rights activism (in its current incarnation) crumbles. In particular I find the notion of ‘trans children’ deeply disturbing, and cannot see how affirming gender non-conforming children as members of the opposite sex is anything other than sexist, homophobic and cruel.
So what do I think?
That one’s sex is fixed and cannot change. It is also, in the vast majority of situations, irrelevant and should have no bearing on how one is expected to dress or behave. Where it is relevant, though, it is reasonable to draw distinctions on sex based lines – I can’t personally get too worked up about toilets (you know me – I’ll piss anywhere), but in relation to prisons, sports and initiatives intended to counter the under-representation of women in specific arenas it is absolutely appropriate to exclude men, however they identify.
That gender is a useful theoretical tool for analysing how relations between the sexes are structured and behaviour understood. It is not a property of individuals and is not fixed. I would much rather work towards a society in which gender stereotypes are dismantled than one in which they are reified to the point that one’s ‘gender identity’ is seen as more authentic than one’s sex.
That there are people who feel very uncomfortable in their bodies, and dearly wish that they were the opposite sex. This might manifest as feeling that they are ‘really’ a man / woman despite their biology, but this doesn’t make it true – I don’t even know what it means to ‘feel like a woman’ other than by referencing my female biology. For some people the distress of having the ‘wrong’ body might be alleviated by presenting as a member of the opposite sex and modifying their body so it more closely resembles the body they wish they had, but ultimately it is incumbent on everyone to come to terms with the reality of who they are, and it is not reasonable to expect the rest of society to structure itself around maintaining a fiction.
As I said I’m nervous of saying this, and am well aware that attempts at frank and open discussion on the subject don’t always end well. But the more I read on either side of this debate, the more I feel that in many cases people are talking at cross purposes to each other, and that, if only we could get past the knee-jerk reactions and defensiveness on both sides, we may find there is more agreement than we realise. In that spirit, I would love to hear your perspective on some of this stuff.

OP posts:
Sophoclesthefox · 14/04/2021 19:28

You said that something I had said about reducing people to what was between their legs was “reductive” - if this was not you I apologise but I went to check and I’m sure it was

Then proceeded to say that you had no qualms putting across your view in a “reductive” manner

Why would you accuse my point of view as being put across reductively if this is the case? This makes no sense

I see. I think my previous post where I said I didn’t mind being “reductive” about an ideology but I tried to avoid being reductive about/impolite to people explains that about as well as I think I can explain it.

But I really think this is nitpicking now, so I’ll leave it at that and step back.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 19:52

@RedDogsBeg

reducing people to what's between their legs and yet yesterday we were told most definitively and forcefully that the terms:

people with a penis

and
people with a vagina

are an absolute must otherwise it's transphobic.

Whilst we are on the subject of reductive terms how do you jul26m balance the don't reduce trans people to their genitals with the insistence from those who consider themselves trans allies with insisting that women are reduced to dehumanising terms associated with their biology such as:

people with a cervix
menstruators
people who menstruate
birthing bodies

The hypocrisy and double standards are appalling and show the levels of misogyny present in this entire ideology.

I’m not sure what you are referring to about people with penis and people with vagina? As I’ve said nothing about that?

I’m a trans ally but I don’t insist on anything that you’ve said so I can’t possibly comment.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 19:54

@Sophoclesthefox

You said that something I had said about reducing people to what was between their legs was “reductive” - if this was not you I apologise but I went to check and I’m sure it was

Then proceeded to say that you had no qualms putting across your view in a “reductive” manner

Why would you accuse my point of view as being put across reductively if this is the case? This makes no sense

I see. I think my previous post where I said I didn’t mind being “reductive” about an ideology but I tried to avoid being reductive about/impolite to people explains that about as well as I think I can explain it.

But I really think this is nitpicking now, so I’ll leave it at that and step back.

Well mine was about an ideology as well? I don’t understand how I was being reductive to a specific person. If you took it that way then I’m sorry you say the discussion matter of ideology as a direct attack on yourself personally.

It’s not nitpicking, it’s hypocrisy. So how about get off your high horse of patronisation.

RedDogsBeg · 14/04/2021 20:17

I didn't say you had but we were informed that those phrases are now to be used, failure to use them is transphobic and exclusionary, as an ally I presumed you were aware of this and that you are fully signed up and on board with all aspects of the ideology you support.

Notice you swerved the part about the misogynistic reduction of women to body parts and biological functions, you on board with that?

Shedbuilder · 14/04/2021 20:56

I see Jul26m's moved onto toilets now. Of course on other threads trans allies accuse us of being obsessed with toilets, just as when it suits them they accuse us of being obsessed with what's between peoples' legs.

It's a game.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 21:37

No trans person is so insular that they think there are no other important problems in the world.

Then I'm at a loss to understand why their "struggles" should trump women's rights to single sex spaces. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 21:40

There’s often an argument going on on these threads about toilets

Generally because trans activists and allies derail tangentially related threads about single sex spaces in general to be about them, in my experience.

RedDogsBeg · 14/04/2021 23:24

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There’s often an argument going on on these threads about toilets

Generally because trans activists and allies derail tangentially related threads about single sex spaces in general to be about them, in my experience.

Yep, I can confidently say that every time toilets are introduced into a thread not about toilets it's not GC posters doing it.
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 14/04/2021 23:34

@Shedbuilder

I see Jul26m's moved onto toilets now. Of course on other threads trans allies accuse us of being obsessed with toilets, just as when it suits them they accuse us of being obsessed with what's between peoples' legs.

It's a game.

Yes
terfypants · 20/05/2021 17:41

I know it's not really the done thing to revive dormant threads, but I wanted to give a quick update on this.
Heeding the advice I received on this thread, I didn't send anything to my friend, but decided to wait for the opportunity to broach the subject in response to something that she posted.... well today that happened, when she posted something about some States banning 'life saving gender affirming care for transgender youth'...
It was so helpful having my previous unsent message, as it meant that responding with something shorter that related to the thing she posted was little more than a cut and paste job.
I was absolutely terrified sending the message, and really unsure what to expect back - but she responded pretty quickly with a lovely and really positive suggestion that we talk about it, which I think could prove really interesting.
Thanks to all on these boards for helping me - over several years - to make sense of my unease on these issues, for giving me the courage to come out to my friend, and for helping me to do so in a less combative way than I might have done without your feedback!!

The message I did send, and the reply I received, copied below:
I’m more than a little nervous about broaching this topic, knowing what a polarising issue it is, but increasingly my silence has felt dishonest so – in the hope that this might result in a stimulating discussion and frank exchange of ideas – I want to respond to your recent post about gender affirming care for young people.
I don’t pretend to understand the US context, and in particular the fact that the only critiques of gender ideology seem to come from the right, but I do find the notion of ‘trans children’ deeply disturbing, and cannot see how affirming gender non-conforming children as members of the opposite sex is anything other than sexist, homophobic and cruel. I really struggle with the idea of setting young children on a medical pathway before they are able to fully comprehend its implications.
I guess at root it boils down to the fact that I simply don’t believe we have an innate gender identity or that it is possible to be born in the wrong body, from which starting point much of trans rights activism (in its current incarnation) crumbles. I would much rather work towards a society in which gender stereotypes are dismantled than one in which they are reified to the point that one’s ‘gender identity’ is seen as more authentic than one’s sex.
As I said I’m nervous of saying this, and am well aware that attempts at frank and open discussion on the subject don’t always end well. But given that I think on most things our politics are pretty closely aligned and I know you to be intelligent, thoughtful and compassionate, I am genuinely interested in understanding your perspective on some of this stuff.

Ah, yes. Thanks for bringing this up.
I would love to talk with you about this.
It’s an area in which I speak in much more black-and-white terms publicly, because of the rights issues and toxic transphobia out there. However it’s raises as lot of issues in which there is a much room for discussion, in safe spaces such as among beloved and trusted friends and family, of gray areas, and concerns about how sexism informs notions of gender and gender identity. I do get worked up and ranty about this sometimes, because it’s emotionally close to home. But i also understand reservations like yours, and I really think it would be good to talk to you about this. (And not because i’m confident that I have all the answers and that I’ll “win you over.”)
Maybe we could have a phonecall or Skype/Whats app chat to discuss?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 20/05/2021 17:47

terfypants

What a great outcome! There should always be room to discuss these issues.

Leafstamp · 20/05/2021 18:46

Ah, well done terfypants. I'm really glad you sent that message, that your friend was receptive and that you came back to update. Thank you.

JoodyBlue · 20/05/2021 18:52

It sounds like the start of a proper conversation. Like in the olden days -- pre social media :) Flowers

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 20/05/2021 19:37

Well I’m amazed! This is one of those occasions when I’m very happy to be proved wrong. It’s the first time I’ve ever heard of someone on that side of the fence actually being open to and welcoming a discussion! Great news. Maybe she’s more open to common sense and reason than her posting history would suggest. And it’s obviously a friendship you both value which is lovely.

Well done terfypants and good luck with the conversation. Please do let us know how it goes!

MrsSteveMcDonald · 20/05/2021 20:26

Fab news

Manderleyagain · 20/05/2021 20:45

That's really positive isn't it. Well done! It's interesting that she recognises there are grey areas and complexities to be discussed, but in public presents it as black and white. I'm sure if everyone spoke with only their true level or certainty, and publicly acknowledged the nuances etc the whole discussion would be completely different.

cocoapopfan · 21/05/2021 10:38

I don't think it's a good idea to put her reply up word for word on a public forum when it's obviously intended as a personal communication. If it was me I'd edit that.

It's great you are having the conversation and hope it keeps going well. I was in a similar situation – until suddenly I was ghosted. So maybe be prepared, this is such a difficult topic.

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