Coming out as gender critical

[terfypants]

I'm about to send this message to one of my oldest friends, and am terrified. She is in Canada and is something of a trans rights activist (I'm in UK), and so far I have remained silent when the issue has come up... but its putting a strain on the friendship, so this feels a bit make or break (I'm not expecting her to come round to my way of thinking, but I want to be able to talk about it). Before I hit send, I thought I'd share it here, in the hope that I might get some feedback on tone and content... I found it very difficult to write.

I’m more than a little nervous about broaching this topic, knowing what a polarising issue it is, but increasingly my silence has felt dishonest so – in the hope that this might result in a stimulating discussion and frank exchange of ideas – here goes.
Gender ideology and trans rights activism. It is clear that it is a subject close to your heart, and it is evident that we have very different perspectives on the issue. Given that I think on most things our politics are pretty closely aligned and I know you to be intelligent, thoughtful and compassionate I am genuinely interested in understanding your take on what it means to be trans, and what that means for the rest of society (I’m thinking about the law here, but also things like the practice of stating one’s pronouns).
I’m struggling to succinctly sum up my own feelings on the matter, as there are so many facets to this and I don’t know where to begin, but I guess at root it boils down to the fact that I simply don’t believe we have an innate gender identity or that it is possible to be born in the wrong body, from which starting point much of trans rights activism (in its current incarnation) crumbles. In particular I find the notion of ‘trans children’ deeply disturbing, and cannot see how affirming gender non-conforming children as members of the opposite sex is anything other than sexist, homophobic and cruel.
So what do I think?
That one’s sex is fixed and cannot change. It is also, in the vast majority of situations, irrelevant and should have no bearing on how one is expected to dress or behave. Where it is relevant, though, it is reasonable to draw distinctions on sex based lines – I can’t personally get too worked up about toilets (you know me – I’ll piss anywhere), but in relation to prisons, sports and initiatives intended to counter the under-representation of women in specific arenas it is absolutely appropriate to exclude men, however they identify.
That gender is a useful theoretical tool for analysing how relations between the sexes are structured and behaviour understood. It is not a property of individuals and is not fixed. I would much rather work towards a society in which gender stereotypes are dismantled than one in which they are reified to the point that one’s ‘gender identity’ is seen as more authentic than one’s sex.
That there are people who feel very uncomfortable in their bodies, and dearly wish that they were the opposite sex. This might manifest as feeling that they are ‘really’ a man / woman despite their biology, but this doesn’t make it true – I don’t even know what it means to ‘feel like a woman’ other than by referencing my female biology. For some people the distress of having the ‘wrong’ body might be alleviated by presenting as a member of the opposite sex and modifying their body so it more closely resembles the body they wish they had, but ultimately it is incumbent on everyone to come to terms with the reality of who they are, and it is not reasonable to expect the rest of society to structure itself around maintaining a fiction.
As I said I’m nervous of saying this, and am well aware that attempts at frank and open discussion on the subject don’t always end well. But the more I read on either side of this debate, the more I feel that in many cases people are talking at cross purposes to each other, and that, if only we could get past the knee-jerk reactions and defensiveness on both sides, we may find there is more agreement than we realise. In that spirit, I would love to hear your perspective on some of this stuff.

Also what is your reason for not doing so? I asked before but you didn’t say
But neither have you given a reason why I should, just why Alex and Sam might want to.
The reasons I don't want to are well rehearsed on this board, so I didn't go into them, but in brief when I see others do it I tend to regard it either as narcissistic self indulgence or empty virtue signalling, neither of which I want any part of. Putting 'my' pronouns in my emails would imply that I believe they are mine, which I don't.
One of the reasons I am finding it hard to broach the subject with my friend, is that I have previously let lots of little things go and allowed her to assume I agree with her. As I discovered while trying to write to her yesterday, and when reflecting on the very helpful comments from some posters, this has now made it much harder for me to broach the subject in light and non confrontational way. Given that I now want to start being more honest with her and others it feels important not to just go along with something 'harmless' that will be interpreted by others as signalling my belief in gender identity and support for the idea that it is appropriate for individuals to dictate how others should refer to them.

For what it's worth, OP, I think that's a brilliant letter and have copied and pasted it into my 'useful' file. I'd send it. It's not a real friendship when you can't tell a friend how you really feel about something so fundamentally important to women's rights.

The thing I'm struggling with is the number of posters who remain, and wish to remain, friends with people who are ardently pro transgender ideology and gender ideology. There are only a couple of people still in my life who are in any way pro-trans and both of them are of the couldn't-really-care but let's try and be kind persuasion, partly I suspect because their jobs require them to be.

Some of my former friends have fled weeping irrational tears after telling me that my beliefs are literal violence to them: my sister is one of them. Apparently after years of both being Labour voters, both being progressive, my GC beliefs make me anathema. Others have revealed themselves as the kind of people who just follow the herd for a quiet life, which has made me reassess how much time and energy I want to spend on them. Fortunately the void created has allowed new friends to enter —rational, thoughtful, genuinely women-focussed women. It's sad when a long friendship comes to an end, but we all change as we grow older.and in my opinion it's better to have people you can be honest with than people you're treading on eggshells with.

This may not be your personality style, but another approach is the wide-eyed Louis Theroux innocent questioning ie

-but mammals can't change sex-it would have been all over the news?!
-but surely there aren't criminals with penises housed in women's prisons?!
-lesbians don't really have to pretend to fancy people with penises, do they?! They like fannies!

It's a less direct way of raising the issue. Obviously if they're captured the responses will be bollocks, but no doubt entertaining bollocks.

Yes the faux innocence pointed question is a great tactic. Especially when there are onlookers present.

I think you’ve expressed your GC point of view beautifully and I’d send it. She’ll think twice about sending you TRA petitions to sign at the very least!

I do like the faux innocence approach, and agree with pp that asking questions is a good way of broaching the subject without appearing confrontational. I'm hesitating a bit here because I really want to thrash this out with her, so don't really want to pretend it is a subject that that I'm stumbling upon for the first time.

I think faux innocence is more effective with people who don't know you or in group situation where a trainer is trying to persuade you that black is white. Particularly in the latter case a well-timed 'Maybe I'm being a bit thick but surely no human being can actually change sex?' can be effective. But if someone's know you for years they're not going to fall for it.

Besides which, if there's one thing I've learned from the trans debacle it's that reason and logic and science don't change peoples' minds. They know they're irrational and the only way of upholding their irrationality is to stick with it.

@Shedbuilder

I think faux innocence is more effective with people who don't know you or in group situation where a trainer is trying to persuade you that black is white. Particularly in the latter case a well-timed 'Maybe I'm being a bit thick but surely no human being can actually change sex?' can be effective. But if someone's know you for years they're not going to fall for it.

Besides which, if there's one thing I've learned from the trans debacle it's that reason and logic and science don't change peoples' minds. They know they're irrational and the only way of upholding their irrationality is to stick with it.

I agree.

As an alternative to faux innocence, you could also consider appearing to enthusiastically support her views, and let her join the dots herself.
For example: “Yes of course intact male rapists should be put in women’s prisons if they ID as female! I know several women and staff have already been sexually assaulted by them, but we women really need to accept being raped and abused in order for trans prisoners not to have their feelings hurt.”
Or: “Yes, transwomen with male bodies should be allowed in women’s sports. Who cares about the women who lose medals and podium places, or get seriously injured, when trans people’s feelings are at stake? It doesn’t matter that they retain all their male advantages of higher cardiac output, vital capacity and muscle strength - women should just be kind and accept losing to them, shouldn’t we.”
It would really put her on the spot, OP. She either has to agree with the statements ,and admit she doesn’t care how this ideology damages women’s rights and safety, or have a rethink about her unquestioning support of it.

@HotTomatoes

I think you’ve expressed your GC point of view beautifully and I’d send it. She’ll think twice about sending you TRA petitions to sign at the very least!

I don't think I will send it quite in that form, as I do agree with the posters who have said it is too much all at once, and would be unlikely to promote dialogue. Writing it was a useful exercise, and helped me organise my thoughts, which I think for me is the biggest hurdle - unless I know exactly what I want to say I tend to clam up and say nothing, so hopefully I will now feel more able to say something when the opportunity to do so in a less 'out of the blue' way next presents itself.

The thing I'm struggling with is the number of posters who remain, and wish to remain, friends with people who are ardently pro transgender ideology and gender ideology. There are only a couple of people still in my life who are in any way pro-trans and both of them are of the couldn't-really-care but let's try and be kind persuasion, partly I suspect because their jobs require them to be.
This is an old friend who I generally have a lot of time for, but she lives on a different continent and if the outcome is that we drop our friendship, it wouldn't actually affect me a great deal.
However I am genuinely interested in properly understanding what our points of difference on this are, as I suspect that our respective visions of the ideal world that we would like to see are not that far apart in many respects. She is one of the most vociferous of my friends and acquaintances on this issue, but she is also someone who thinks critically and deeply about things, and with whom I think there is a chance of getting past the the usual mantras - if only I could initiate the conversation.

You say you're "genuinely interested in properly understanding where our points of difference are".

But your approach here suggests anything but. Your message is long and preachy. It suggests that you believe your viewpoint is the "right" one and that you want her to share it.

If your intention is to understand, then you should ask questions and listen. Instead, you've made it all about you and what you believe.

Also, can I just point out that using terminology like "coming out" is insulting to LGBT people.

We have to come out because of innate and immutable characteristics. "coming out" as gender critical is not a thing. It's honestly insulting to draw equivalence with LGBT people for something like this.

Besides which, if there's one thing I've learned from the trans debacle it's that reason and logic and science don't change peoples' minds. They know they're irrational and the only way of upholding their irrationality is to stick with it.

Yes that's a good point.

It's honestly insulting to draw equivalence with LGBT people for something like this.

Pot kettle comes to mind.

This will most likely end your friendship.

It's one thing to hold these views, it's quite another to approach an activist who believes the opposite and has heard these arguments time and time again. Consider what your motives actually are - if you are seeking information, there is plenty of that in medical, psychological literature and from LGBT+ groups.

As far as many trans rights activists are concerned, "coming out "as gender critical is pretty much the same as "coming out" as racist or homphobic. (Yes, you think they are wrong - this is about the impression they will get.)

I would approach this slightly differently.

IMO, unless you can address the presumption that anyone who disagrees with your friend’s beliefs on this issue is a bigot, you have no realistic hope of having a balanced or productive conversation on the subject.

Start with her post on the open letter to Liz Truss and simply ask if she agrees that the organisations referenced are hate groups and, if so, can she help you understand why she thinks this is the case. Then see where her response takes you.

Before you broach this, think about whether there is any issue on which the two of you do agree and on which you might both have been guilty of attributing bad motives to those holding the opposing view - dismissing them on principle and reframing their position in the worst possible light, rather than addressing the substance of their actual, stated opinions.

I say this because I’ve been thinking about this a lot in relation to the toxicity and polarisation of so many issues society is grappling with at the moment. I've have had to admit to myself that, if I’m honest, I’ve fallen into the identitarian trap in the past on other matters. Brexit was a prime example. With hindsight I can say I bought into the overarching narrative that every ‘Leaver’ was at heart an ignorant, xenophobic ‘Little Englander’. As a result, I didn’t really bother engaging with what they were actually saying to any meaningful degree.

If you can talk about this trend in relation to another issue, you might make some progress towards finding some common ground to build from. Make your first aim agreement that it’s far more helpful to really listen to the substance and nuance of an opposing argument, if you want to have any chance of changing someone’s mind.

I genuinely think this is the first step towards collapsing the house of cards that is gender ideology, but it has to be taken or those with GC views will never get past just being shouted down as ‘evil, hateful bigots’.

Baby steps - but steps in the right direction.

As far as many trans rights activists are concerned, "coming out "as gender critical is pretty much the same as "coming out" as racist or homphobic.

People who think that feminist women who don't think males change sex on their say so and who value their own sex-based rights are a bunch of outdated bigots like racists or homophobes are using a lazy false equivalence to prop up their own shaky position.

As we've seen with the appalling treatment of black female FGM activists by Twitter warriors, and also of lesbians and occasionally gay men who affirm their right to exclusive same sex attraction.

Just send a picture of you on a day out/at the pub wearing a gc t shirt?

Sorry posted too soon - that's what I did and not a word was said about it even though it was very obvious.

@yeahbutnaw

Also, can I just point out that using terminology like "coming out" is insulting to LGBT people.

We have to come out because of innate and immutable characteristics. "coming out" as gender critical is not a thing. It's honestly insulting to draw equivalence with LGBT people for something like this.

Believe me, coming out as bisexual was far less difficult than coming out as gender critical is proving to be...

@terfypants I think it is really well worded. I have a problem myself with any tactical approach to a friendship such as "faux innocence". In my book, if one has a friend, one can be honest with that friend, or the relationship is something other than friendship really. I am not sure I would send it. It would very much depend on how important the friendship is to me going forward. But I wouldn't be able to lie or dissemble. It is again indicative of the toxicity of this issue, that we have to debate the parameters of discussions with our mates.

I say this because I’ve been thinking about this a lot in relation to the toxicity and polarisation of so many issues society is grappling with at the moment. I've have had to admit to myself that, if I’m honest, I’ve fallen into the identitarian trap in the past on other matters. Brexit was a prime example. With hindsight I can say I bought into the overarching narrative that every ‘Leaver’ was at heart an ignorant, xenophobic ‘Little Englander’. As a result, I didn’t really bother engaging with what they were actually saying to any meaningful degree

Me too, Nelly, I could have written your post word for word. I’ve had to have a big rethink on that.

People who think that feminist women who don't think males change sex on their say so and who value their own sex-based rights are a bunch of outdated bigots like racists or homophobes are using a lazy false equivalence to prop up their own shaky position

Absolutely.

As for not using “coming out”, I read an article linked from here just yesterday, written by a transactivist that referred to JKRowling “coming out” as gender critical. Also, am snorfling at the fact that yeah has scolded someone bisexual for saying it awkward!

I have kept people who disagree on this in my life. I’m not saying it hasn’t caused tension, and sometimes I get really frustrated and hurt that they seem willing to take the worst possible interpretation of my views. But if I cut someone out because I don’t agree with them, then I’m not really modelling tolerance and acceptance, am I? I could be wrong on this, as I could be on many things, but for now, I do think that the the long standing friendships with a solid foundation can survive this. I have, however been dropped by a friend for the high crime of saying I didn’t like the word “terf”. We’d never even discussed it, other than me saying those six words. Very reasonable, I’m sure.

Yes you're right Joody, I was pondering it in more general terms.

Why do you have to throw down the gauntlet? Challenge her. If she says transwomen should go to female prisons, ask her what special measures are in place so that no female prisoner is forced to share a cell with a male prisoner and no female officer is forced to search a male prisoner. Ask questions about women's rights to safety and privacy and how are these being accommodated. Transwomen in rugby, fine but how are you going to avoid injury to women etc.

I don’t think it’s worth trying to initiate a conversation about it to begin with. You can’t have a rational discussion with someone who isn’t rational, as others have said.

It seems that the most important thing to you is to stop colluding in the pretence that you agree with her on this. And if you want to communicate with her at all (as opposed to just giving up on the friendship - I honestly doubt it will survive your “coming out”) I think that’s all you need to say.

“Coming out” is actually a good analogy as this has parallels with a gay person coming out to someone they know to be homophobic. You already know she is prejudiced and bigoted against you. You already know she has assumed something about you that isn’t true because her mindset is so narrow she can’t conceive of you being different to her in this way. You already know she thinks she has the moral high ground, every bit as much as religious people who think their beliefs are sanctioned by their god.

I think it’s important to remember that.

How would you feel about sending something along these lines:

“Dear friend, there’s something I need to let you know.

I’m afraid you have been assuming I feel the same way about trans issues as you do, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. I think that “trans rights” as they are currently pursued are deeply harmful to women’s rights, and as a feminist I am not on board with that.

I am very happy to discuss my views with you if you are interested in engaging on this topic. Equally I am happy for us not to broach the subject if it’s going to be too difficult to resolve.

Either way, you need to know that you are not communicating with an “ally” on this point when you send all those links from a pro-TRA perspective. I have many links I could send you from the GC feminist perspective and would be happy to do so if you are interested in understanding where I’m coming from, but I imagine you feel about those articles the way I feel about the ones you’ve been sending to me.

I realise that this issue is so divisive that our differences here could mean the end of our friendship but while that is not what I wish for, I cannot in good conscience remain silent any longer while you continue to assume I share your stance on this issue. It’s too important to me, just as it’s clearly also important to you.”

Any use?