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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Coming out as gender critical

117 replies

terfypants · 13/04/2021 18:26

I'm about to send this message to one of my oldest friends, and am terrified. She is in Canada and is something of a trans rights activist (I'm in UK), and so far I have remained silent when the issue has come up... but its putting a strain on the friendship, so this feels a bit make or break (I'm not expecting her to come round to my way of thinking, but I want to be able to talk about it). Before I hit send, I thought I'd share it here, in the hope that I might get some feedback on tone and content... I found it very difficult to write.

I’m more than a little nervous about broaching this topic, knowing what a polarising issue it is, but increasingly my silence has felt dishonest so – in the hope that this might result in a stimulating discussion and frank exchange of ideas – here goes.
Gender ideology and trans rights activism. It is clear that it is a subject close to your heart, and it is evident that we have very different perspectives on the issue. Given that I think on most things our politics are pretty closely aligned and I know you to be intelligent, thoughtful and compassionate I am genuinely interested in understanding your take on what it means to be trans, and what that means for the rest of society (I’m thinking about the law here, but also things like the practice of stating one’s pronouns).
I’m struggling to succinctly sum up my own feelings on the matter, as there are so many facets to this and I don’t know where to begin, but I guess at root it boils down to the fact that I simply don’t believe we have an innate gender identity or that it is possible to be born in the wrong body, from which starting point much of trans rights activism (in its current incarnation) crumbles. In particular I find the notion of ‘trans children’ deeply disturbing, and cannot see how affirming gender non-conforming children as members of the opposite sex is anything other than sexist, homophobic and cruel.
So what do I think?
That one’s sex is fixed and cannot change. It is also, in the vast majority of situations, irrelevant and should have no bearing on how one is expected to dress or behave. Where it is relevant, though, it is reasonable to draw distinctions on sex based lines – I can’t personally get too worked up about toilets (you know me – I’ll piss anywhere), but in relation to prisons, sports and initiatives intended to counter the under-representation of women in specific arenas it is absolutely appropriate to exclude men, however they identify.
That gender is a useful theoretical tool for analysing how relations between the sexes are structured and behaviour understood. It is not a property of individuals and is not fixed. I would much rather work towards a society in which gender stereotypes are dismantled than one in which they are reified to the point that one’s ‘gender identity’ is seen as more authentic than one’s sex.
That there are people who feel very uncomfortable in their bodies, and dearly wish that they were the opposite sex. This might manifest as feeling that they are ‘really’ a man / woman despite their biology, but this doesn’t make it true – I don’t even know what it means to ‘feel like a woman’ other than by referencing my female biology. For some people the distress of having the ‘wrong’ body might be alleviated by presenting as a member of the opposite sex and modifying their body so it more closely resembles the body they wish they had, but ultimately it is incumbent on everyone to come to terms with the reality of who they are, and it is not reasonable to expect the rest of society to structure itself around maintaining a fiction.
As I said I’m nervous of saying this, and am well aware that attempts at frank and open discussion on the subject don’t always end well. But the more I read on either side of this debate, the more I feel that in many cases people are talking at cross purposes to each other, and that, if only we could get past the knee-jerk reactions and defensiveness on both sides, we may find there is more agreement than we realise. In that spirit, I would love to hear your perspective on some of this stuff.

OP posts:
Sophoclesthefox · 14/04/2021 17:32

I’m more keen to hear about these intimidating tactics fromGC people are than I am to get into another circular conversation about “what is a woman”, to be honest. The boards are replete with those.

I don’t feel any compulsion not to be “reductive” about an ideology, to be frank. I cut my teeth on that concept through atheism, and concluded that while I always try and be polite to people, I don’t need to be polite to or about ideologies at all. If people can’t separate that, then that is unfortunate.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 17:33

FWIW, I don’t agree that what makes men, men and women, women is “what’s between your legs”, which is a pretty reductive way to talk about human beings.

It is.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 14/04/2021 17:35

I am hounded as to whether I support the Yogyakarta principles (which I honestly have never heard of being mentioned outside of mumsnet GC forums ironically)

Well, this time it was you that brought them up, I'd never heard of them before. Anyway it doesn't seem like a productive line of enquiry.

Sophoclesthefox · 14/04/2021 17:36

How did I get deleted? Confused

I was explaining why feminists might cite the Yogyakarta principles to underline that it might not be helpful to closeted trans people as it would force them to out themselves, which wouldn’t align with the principle of privacy.

Blimey.

334bu · 14/04/2021 17:36

OP does your friend believe that gender identity is different from sex? If that is the case then there us perhaps hope for your friendship. If however, she is so deluded as to believe that people can actually change sex by a simple assertion then there really is no hope for your friendship.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 17:36

I don’t feel any compulsion not to be “reductive” about an ideology, to be frank. I cut my teeth on that concept through atheism, and concluded that while I always try and be polite to people, I don’t need to be polite to or about ideologies at all. If people can’t separate that, then that is unfortunate.

I completely agree. I don't believe that self declared gender identity should trump biological sex, and I don't think it is in any way a rational or even a consistent or coherent belief. I acknowledge that people are attached to it, like many beliefs. But that in itself doesn't give it any legitimacy in my eyes.

GoWalkabout · 14/04/2021 17:38

I'd say, I want to acknowledge that I didn't respond to your post /email about xyz. This is an area where I take a different view to yours - I am gender critical - although I think there is much we agree on. If you do want to discuss the issues I would be very willing to talk about it. Something like that.

NancyDrawed · 14/04/2021 17:38

jul26m

My view (not that this should matter to anyone other than me) is that they would be trans.

In your example, the person would be male, but if presenting to the world as female I would either read them as female or trans. They would still be male, though!

Take Blair White, for example. Blair White looks on screen to be an attractive young woman who cares about appearances. Blair White is also clear that she is trans. Not female, but trans.

This is what I struggle with. Why is Blair White a minority in that she is trans and proud to be trans? It seems that some people who transition are demanding to be accepted as something that they are not, rather than being accepted for who they are.

When I have been in the company of people who are trans I have treated them as people. Not as women or men, but as individuals. It is not up to me to validate someone's view of themselves

Shedbuilder · 14/04/2021 17:46

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I don’t feel any compulsion not to be “reductive” about an ideology, to be frank. I cut my teeth on that concept through atheism, and concluded that while I always try and be polite to people, I don’t need to be polite to or about ideologies at all. If people can’t separate that, then that is unfortunate.

I completely agree. I don't believe that self declared gender identity should trump biological sex, and I don't think it is in any way a rational or even a consistent or coherent belief. I acknowledge that people are attached to it, like many beliefs. But that in itself doesn't give it any legitimacy in my eyes.

This. Gender ideology is just like any religious faith. That's why Stonewall had to say TWAW, No Debate — because debate exposes that fact.
jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:10

@Ereshkigalangcleg

transgender people who struggle with their gender identity being told that ultimately whatever you were born with between your legs is what you are

People are just pointing out that sex exists, and sometimes it's important. However much they struggle with their identities, it doesn't change the reality of sex, nor does it mean their issues are the only ones which should ever be considered important.

So can I ask what would you deem is the sex of a person born male, who undergoes reassignment surgery and takes the relevant hormones, who now has a vagina and identifies as female?

But on your second point, I’m not really sure where that is relevant. No trans person is so insular that they think there are no other important problems in the world. What exactly are you getting at here?

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:14

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

I am hounded as to whether I support the Yogyakarta principles (which I honestly have never heard of being mentioned outside of mumsnet GC forums ironically)

Well, this time it was you that brought them up, I'd never heard of them before. Anyway it doesn't seem like a productive line of enquiry.

They were first brought up by someone in response to me on page 1 on this thread actually...
jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:15

@Sophoclesthefox

How did I get deleted? Confused

I was explaining why feminists might cite the Yogyakarta principles to underline that it might not be helpful to closeted trans people as it would force them to out themselves, which wouldn’t align with the principle of privacy.

Blimey.

I didn’t get to read your post before being deleted unfortunately, don’t think I’m ignoring whatever you had said about that.
Helleofabore · 14/04/2021 18:17

So can I ask what would you deem is the sex of a person born male, who undergoes reassignment surgery and takes the relevant hormones, who now has a vagina and identifies as female?

When every cell in your body is coded to be the sex you were born, how can any surgery change that?

A 'neovagina' is not a vagina no matter how someone may wish it was. A penis formed from skin from a forearm is not a penis either.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:18

@Sophoclesthefox

I’m more keen to hear about these intimidating tactics fromGC people are than I am to get into another circular conversation about “what is a woman”, to be honest. The boards are replete with those.

I don’t feel any compulsion not to be “reductive” about an ideology, to be frank. I cut my teeth on that concept through atheism, and concluded that while I always try and be polite to people, I don’t need to be polite to or about ideologies at all. If people can’t separate that, then that is unfortunate.

You feel no compulsion not to be reductive but accuse my point of view as reductive. Ok 👍🏼
Childrenofthestones · 14/04/2021 18:21

OP, is there a subject that your best friend could bring up and sympathetically disagree with you over, that would mean you would end your friendship.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:21

@Helleofabore

So can I ask what would you deem is the sex of a person born male, who undergoes reassignment surgery and takes the relevant hormones, who now has a vagina and identifies as female?

When every cell in your body is coded to be the sex you were born, how can any surgery change that?

A 'neovagina' is not a vagina no matter how someone may wish it was. A penis formed from skin from a forearm is not a penis either.

Okay, two questions:
  1. what does it matter to you if the cells in their body are “coded to the sex” (let’s say male) they were born whilst they appear and live life as woman? I don’t mean this to sound sarcastic, I just genuinely don’t understand how this can matter to people.

  2. in the example above, I don’t mean to take this discussion down a different road, I just mean it as a simple question to understand the opposing viewpoint to myself - what single sex toilets would you expect this person to use?

Sophoclesthefox · 14/04/2021 18:21

I did what? Confused

Walk me through that one again, jul26.

Also, please do feel free to answer my question about these intimidating GC people.

terryleather · 14/04/2021 18:22

So can I ask what would you deem is the sex of a person born male, who undergoes reassignment surgery and takes the relevant hormones, who now has a vagina and identifies as female?

As I understand it, sex is classified by the type of gamete a human potentially has - small and motile for male or large and non-motile for female.

Nothing a human can do to their body will change this so the person in this example was and will remain male.

Shedbuilder · 14/04/2021 18:23

That person's sex would be male. They would have XY chromosomes and a male skeleton, for a start.

You were anxious not to reduce people to what was between their legs: changing what's between your legs doesn't change your sex. You're born either female or male and you can't change that. Your sex is determined within days of conception. This is biological and scientific fact.

334bu · 14/04/2021 18:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Redwinestillfine · 14/04/2021 18:33

Honestly, if you want to stay friends mute her in FB, don't get drawn in and ignore. If she asks you directly be prepared to debate but I wouldn't go looking for the argument. If on the other hand you just want your say, have it.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 14/04/2021 18:38

They were first brought up by someone in response to me on page 1 on this thread actually...

I am sorry, I missed that.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:38

@Sophoclesthefox

I did what? Confused

Walk me through that one again, jul26.

Also, please do feel free to answer my question about these intimidating GC people.

You said that something I had said about reducing people to what was between their legs was “reductive” - if this was not you I apologise but I went to check and I’m sure it was.

Then proceeded to say that you had no qualms putting across your view in a “reductive” manner.

Why would you accuse my point of view as being put across reductively if this is the case? This makes no sense.

Oh well, actually there’s a forum on Irish schools and toilets where I’ve receiving numerous patronising comments if you’d like to take a look there. I do assume by your point of view you won’t agree that they are so. Much like, perhaps, I wouldn’t agree that TRA stances towards whoever posted about this initially being intimidating, are actually so.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:41

@Shedbuilder

That person's sex would be male. They would have XY chromosomes and a male skeleton, for a start.

You were anxious not to reduce people to what was between their legs: changing what's between your legs doesn't change your sex. You're born either female or male and you can't change that. Your sex is determined within days of conception. This is biological and scientific fact.

Okay, I take your point.

There’s often an argument going on on these threads about toilets so, ideally without changing the course of this discussion, I would like to simply ask, if a born-female has undergone sex assignment surgery and looks like a “typical” male, which toilet would they be expected to use, in your view?

RedDogsBeg · 14/04/2021 19:14

reducing people to what's between their legs and yet yesterday we were told most definitively and forcefully that the terms:

people with a penis

and
people with a vagina

are an absolute must otherwise it's transphobic.

Whilst we are on the subject of reductive terms how do you jul26m balance the don't reduce trans people to their genitals with the insistence from those who consider themselves trans allies with insisting that women are reduced to dehumanising terms associated with their biology such as:

people with a cervix
menstruators
people who menstruate
birthing bodies

The hypocrisy and double standards are appalling and show the levels of misogyny present in this entire ideology.