Ireland will no longer be providing single sex toilets in primary and secondary schools!!!

[XXSex]

I am LIVID!!! New technical guidance has been released.
www.education.ie/en/School-Design/Technical-Guidance-Documents/Current-Technical-Guidance/sdg-02-06-sanitary-facilities-april-2021-.pdf

All mixed sex. Hand basin outside the WC (WAH your bloody hands in front of boys). Doors down to the floor (any one else see an issue in a mixed sex school with mixed sex toilets with this set up)

What the were the department thinking?!!!

My children's school has these types of toilets. My sons hate them.

This is purely anecdotal I know and so not data but pre-covid a friend and I were talking and she mentioned how concerned she is that her daughter won't drink anything at school because she hates the toilets so much. Apparently their group of friends all go en masse at lunchtime to another friend's house (very close to the school) to use the toilets because none of them will use the school ones.

So, I guess that won't be regarded as a problem because the girl's have found a work around which still inconveniences them. It won't be reported (although I urged her to speak to the school - don't know if she did) because these particular girls have some solution albeit an awkward one. I do wonder how many other girls are having to come up with their own solutions to avoiding these toilets.

@Notoriouslynotnotious - if you don’t mind, I’d like to know what happens in a single-sex school when a pupil identifies as trans. I have experience of (religious) single sex schools from many years ago only, and cannot fathom how the presence of trans children would be incorporated in such an environment....

Nothing that I have seen, but the school are introducing trousers for the girls for the first time (maybe that is a nod to dealing with the issue) and it is very likely to help all of the girls even the trans boys. I know my dds trans BFF wears leggings under her skirt currently. I don’t know what happens about names dd calls her friend by her “trans” name and uses pronouns but she isn’t in the same class as her so I don’t know if teachers do.

Multiple examples on this thread of how girls are harming themselves and not going to the toilet when they need to because they hate mixed sex toilets so much.

I can add to that - my DD used to hold it all day until she got to 8 and got single sex toilets. She was like a different child afterwards.

Yes, urine all over the seats, blocked toilets. Yes, boys banging on the doors. All that happened. And that was before they started to go through puberty with all the issues that brings.

This is a scandal. Access to education is a human right for children. If children are scared to pee at school then that is affecting their ability to access education. Even more so when it comes to periods - how many girls stay off because they don't want to use the loos during their period? Has anyone in government bothered to find out?

The irony of my sponsoring building specific girls toilets via PLAN, in an African country, ten years ago, so more girls could not miss school! It has long been recognised as a problem all round the world.

The irony of my sponsoring building specific girls toilets via PLAN, in an African country, ten years ago, so more girls could not miss school! It has long been recognised as a problem all round the world

Few ever pick up on how racist the whole thing is. Plan will campaign for single sex toilets so girls don't get raped and can attend school, but western men and boys apparently aren't like their Foreign counterparts and must pee next to.little girls to prove it.

Thanks, @Notoriouslynotnotious, for answering my question! 💐

Access to toilets should be a fundamental equality thing: how did we get to 'some girls can't use girls' toilets or any toilets at all any more but that's fine because now male children can have their best choice' ?

The whole point of this is making it very clear to female humans: either you treat the male species as VIPS and put them first in everything, or you lose your access to society.

Got a religion or disability or any other reason you can't prioritise a male person's superior needs and feelings and rights? Sucks to be you. Get over it. There's a male person you should be serving.

The whole point of putting this into schools is training girls from the early age that privacy, dignity and sex based facilities are not the right of females and to get used to not having them.

Its unjustifiable sexism and misogyny.

@Thecatonthemat

Bring back single sex schools is maybe a good alternative now, at least for the girls.

How would that work well with a transgirl in the school?

Are single sex schools protected as single sex schools while single sex toilets, prisons etc aren't?

My understanding at present is that female children cannot identify in to independent boys only schools, Eton being an example, but a number of independent girls schools have accepted male children.

I’m not sure about the situation in IK however in Ireland this doesn’t arise - YET. We have very few numbers of GRC being heated to children under 18.

This is about to change as a report is about to be issued regarding full self ID for under 18s. This is a Pre cursor to the law being changed.

I wonder if it will consider that it would mean that parents who chose single school will be admitting boys/girls under this proposal, that it will be against the law (discrimination on the Gender ground) to refuse their admittance, that objecting to mixed sex overnight accommodation will also be against the law, that it won’t be a small number because it has increased in the last number of years in Ireland. That their child will be able to apply to become the opposite sex without their parents knowledge. That organisations will not be able to tell parents sending their child to the Gaeltacht might be sharing dormitories with a member of the opposite sex.

We need to wake Irish parents up.

@MichelleofzeResistance I'm wondering about the Irish situation but thanks
@XXSex, that's what I was wondering though didn't ask properly. Does a child have to have gone through the Self-ID process in order to access a single sex school that is not reflective of their birth sex? From what you're saying that is the case but clearly numbers affected would change if the legislation shifts to over 16s.

It seems to be common (anecdotally) for children to be moved to mixed sex schools if they decide they are trans. I see a poster above mentions girls remaining in their all girls schools even after they decide they are boys. I find it hard to imagine a boy in an all boys school making the same decision if he decided he was a girl.

Schools can discriminate on the gender ground to remain single sex. A couple of points (from someone who is NOT a legal person)

1. If a girl in a girls only school obtains a GRC and that school allows the child to stay then the school can no longer rely on the previous exemption
2. Of a boy obtains a GRC and wants to move to a girls only school, the school could not say no on the gender ground. They would be discriminating against the child.

Up until now there have been so few GRC issued to the under 18 that the girls transitioned were socially transitioning. In this case they could continue in an all girls school.

Hope that makes sense

Had no idea the Irish Equal Status Act referred to gender rather than sex, makes it so much harder to fight initiatives like this toilet proposal. Also makes it so clear how important it is for UK feminists to fight to keep references to sex in official documents and legislation.

For what it's worth it's not just girls who are impacted by mixed gender toilets. I asked both my kids to look at the plans. Neither DD (10) nor DS (12) liked how public the area was but said it would ok if all they needed was to pee. When i told them that girls and boys would be sharing their tune changed. Neither wanted to share with the opposite sex. Impacts to girls will be more significant but plenty of boys won't like it either.

Thanks @XXSex

@LurkyMcLurkLurk I agree that neither boys nor girls will want that.

@N4ish it’s much worse than that. The government are going to add gender Identity into the gender ground - so EVERYONE will be covered. I don’t see how this will work.

ALSO- In 2011 a case was brought under the gender ground and disability ground “2011 Equality Tribunal decision in Hannon v First Direct Logistics Ltd”. Note that under EMPLOYMENT Equality Law this was upheld and therefore protects anyone being discriminated against in employment because they are transitioning (they do not have to have a GRC!).

This has not (AFAIK) been tested in our Irish Human Rights Laws etc. This just applies to Employment Equality Law.

www.arthurcox.com/knowledge/transgender-inclusion-in-the-workplace/

“Notably, the protections afforded by Irish equality law outlined below apply not only to those who have their gender recognised under the Gender Recognition Act, but to any person suffering discrimination on the basis that they are transgender, transitioning, their sexuality, or indeed any of the other protected grounds outlined in the Employment Equality Acts 1998-2015...

“The Tribunal found in favour of the claimant thus helpfully clarifying that the gender ground encompasses transgender under the Employment Equality Acts in Ireland.”

Haven't RTFT but one thing that worries me is how much easier it is for men/boys (referring more to older year groups here) to put hidden cameras in unisex stalls. Having reads news articles pertaining to such incidents in unisex public toilets, even I tend to avoid them whenever possible. Of course, women/girls can do something like that too, but statistically it's far more unlikely a scenario.

The only thing I can think of is that more Irish schools are single-sex generally than in other countries. When I was in school in Ireland about half of the schools were single-sex so possibly parents who are worried about this new set-up will default to choosing single-sex schools for their children. I know I would if it meant I could avoid this nonsense. There are an equal number of state schools that are single sex or mixed in most towns, from my anecdotal experience, so it wouldn’t necessarily mean paying more or going private.

@HeirloomTomato

The only thing I can think of is that more Irish schools are single-sex generally than in other countries. When I was in school in Ireland about half of the schools were single-sex so possibly parents who are worried about this new set-up will default to choosing single-sex schools for their children. I know I would if it meant I could avoid this nonsense. There are an equal number of state schools that are single sex or mixed in most towns, from my anecdotal experience, so it wouldn’t necessarily mean paying more or going private.

I haven't RTFT but when Self ID is expanded to 16 and 17 year old teenagers, Single sex schools will have to a accept teenagers of the opposite sex with a GRC.

Yes salted they will.

@Notoriouslynotnotious

Yes salted they will.

So presumably we can in the future refer to them as single gender schools.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I never understand how bullying is supoosed to be improved. I mean you have double the number of kids using the space if anything it gets worse surely?

And all the staff who suddenly aolear to supervised mix sex areas to stop bullying, where were they when it was single sex?

What do they do that can't be done in single sex areas ?

Well they can supervise open plan toilet areas like this in full view of other staff members, however single sex toilet areas are usually closed off - and staff are usually advised not to enter unless absolutely necessary to avoid any rumours/accusations etc.

Open plan toilets in schools also have benefits of lower rates of vandalism, lower rates of bunking off and hiding out in the toilets - not quite so fun in a single cubicle on your own.

We have had open plan toilets in a secondary school in Scotland since the summer with a new build and have had no additional issues reported or witnessed by staff regarding bullying or intimidation in the toilet area by the same or opposite sex.

And no one is leaving the doors open while they go to the toilet either. Numerous disabled loos on each floor with their own hand basin for any girl who needs to wash anything period related. They also are the only toilets with a full length mirror which probably has contributed to no one suspecting girls using them for anything other than that.

Disabled toilets are for people with a disability. Periods are not a disability.

Numerous disabled loos would be great for the disabled children who need to use them. But if they become the period toilets they’ll have to queue.

In many schools disabled toilets are only accessible to people who have a key, so do the girls just have to stay home when they have a period. Also do all these toilets have sanpro bins?