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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Breaking News! The Endocrine Society Confirms that Sex is Biological, Dichotomous, Immutable, Determined at Conception and MUST NOT be Obfuscated by Referring to Gender!!

80 replies

IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk · 08/04/2021 10:41

From the recently released statement (taken slightly out of order):

Sex is an important biological variable that must be considered in the design and analysis of human and animal research. The terms sex and gender should not be used interchangeably. Sex is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes. By contrast, gender includes perception of the individual as male, female, or other, both by the individual and by society; both humans and animals have sex, but only humans have gender. Both sexes produce estrogens, androgens, and progestins; there are no male- or female-specific sex hormones, per se, although these steroids are present in substantially different levels in males and females.

Much of the American public is surprisingly prudish about the word sex; it has now become commonplace to use the seemingly more genteel term gender when one really means sex. In Moritz v Commissioner of Internal Revenue (469 F. 2d 466 [1972]), Ruth Bader Ginsburg (subsequently, The Honorable Ruth Bader Ginsburg) argued against discrimination “on the basis of sex” not “on the basis of gender,” thus clearly, knowledgeably, and presciently understanding that “sex” does not equal “gender.” In a decision 48 years later (Bostock v Clayton County, 590 US, decided June 15, 2020), the United States Supreme Court separately ruled against discrimination on the basis of gender. Gender is often misused as a synonym for sex—for example, when filling out forms for various activities, we are routinely asked to check a box labeled “gender,” but the only available options are boxes labeled “M” and “F.” But sex is not the same thing as gender and using these terms as equivalents obfuscates differences that are real and important in society in general and biomedical research in particular.

Sex is a biological concept. Asexual reproduction (cloning) is routine in microorganisms and some plants, but most vertebrates and all mammals have 2 distinct sexes. Even single-cell organisms have “mating types” to facilitate sexual reproduction. Only cells belonging to different mating types can fuse together to reproduce sexually (2, 3). Sexual reproduction allows for exchange of genetic information and promotes genetic diversity. The classical biological definition of the 2 sexes is that females have ovaries and make larger female gametes (eggs), whereas males have testes and make smaller male gametes (sperm); the 2 gametes fertilize to form the zygote, which has the potential to become a new individual. The advantage of this simple definition is first that it can be applied universally to any species of sexually reproducing organism. Second, it is a bedrock concept of evolution, because selection of traits may differ in the 2 sexes. Thirdly, the definition can be extended to the ovaries and testes, and in this way the categories—female and male—can be applied also to individuals who have gonads but do not make gametes.

It does onto confirm that:
Gender identity is a psychological concept that refers to an individual’s self-perception; while associations between gender identity, neuroanatomic, genetic, and hormone levels exist, a clear causative biological underpinning of gender identity remains to be demonstrated.

I have only skimmed but those are two very important points. Later on there is a rather large inconsistency as it mentions 'sex assigned at birth' Hmm and I haven't got time to finish the rest. I thought it was a positive step though.

There is lots of extremely interesting information about sex and sex hormones etc and how it all works so I'll read through it in detail when I have time.

academic.oup.com/edrv/advance-article/doi/10.1210/endrev/bnaa034/6159361#.YG386Eqj1v4.twitter

OP posts:
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 08/04/2021 10:50

Well, that's going to be an interesting primer for a response from the 1600+ scientist signatories of the infamous letter:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3412288-1-600-Scientists-Just-Signed-A-Letter-Opposing-A-Legal-Definition-Of-A-Gender-Binary

NotBadConsidering · 08/04/2021 10:55

Just working through it. It’s huge, both physically and impact wise. But there’s this:

Sex is an essential part of vertebrate biology, but gender is a human phenomenon; sex often influences gender, but gender cannot influence sex

Sophoclesthefox · 08/04/2021 10:58

That is interesting. One of our gender enthusiastic posters recently set great store by some publications by the Endocrine Society, along the lines of “they couldn’t possibly be wrong!”, so if the rest of the article is in a similar vein, that might be a fascinating reverse ferret to watch Grin

I’ll try and read through it later.

Helleofabore · 08/04/2021 11:01

Thanks Jazz. Just going off to read it now.

R0wantrees · 08/04/2021 11:03

It does onto confirm that:
Gender identity is a psychological concept that refers to an individual’s self-perception; while associations between gender identity, neuroanatomic, genetic, and hormone levels exist, a clear causative biological underpinning of gender identity remains to be demonstrated.

I believe John Money was primarily responsible for the creation of the psychological concept of 'gender identity'.

Relevant thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3884596-award-winning-article-from-1997-on-david-reimer

EndoplasmicReticulum · 08/04/2021 11:06

In other news, the Royal Astronomical Society have confirmed that the earth in fact does orbit the sun.

How have we got to the position where this needs to be explained / argued about?

It's not complicated. It really isn't.

Tibtom · 08/04/2021 11:11

Some had a look at their child's biology text book?

Beowulfa · 08/04/2021 11:12

@EndoplasmicReticulum

In other news, the Royal Astronomical Society have confirmed that the earth in fact does orbit the sun.

How have we got to the position where this needs to be explained / argued about?

It's not complicated. It really isn't.

I like to think the mapping of how gender ideology spread and infected so many will be an interesting PhD topic for future psychologists, like studies of the Salem witch trials and the extreme reactions during the Black Death.

PS I love your user name, reminds me of A Level Biology.

SunsetBeetch · 08/04/2021 11:21

This is a bit of a reverse ferret from them, isn't it?

MrsWooster · 08/04/2021 11:25
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 08/04/2021 11:26

@EndoplasmicReticulum

In other news, the Royal Astronomical Society have confirmed that the earth in fact does orbit the sun.

How have we got to the position where this needs to be explained / argued about?

It's not complicated. It really isn't.

I think this all the time. Like the craziness of World Rugby having to commission a huge, presumably expensive, study to “prove” that males have a strength advantage over females. Like it was ever in doubt.

But in a world where numerous sporting bodies, including England Rugby, choose to deny such blatantly obvious aspects of reality; in a world where “scientists” are denying the reality of biological sex, unfortunately we need these studies to act as some kind of ballast against the inexorable rise of the zeppelin of unreason.

Just waiting for the denial that water is wet (“but ice!!!”) and the demands that we “prove” it.

In that context... good news about this absolutely groundbreaking study.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 08/04/2021 11:27

I like to think the mapping of how gender ideology spread and infected so many will be an interesting PhD topic for future psychologists, like studies of the Salem witch trials and the extreme reactions during the Black Death.

One day! I just hope I live long enough to see that day.

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2021 11:41

Oh, well, gosh, who knew?

This is interesting, though. Almost like some people are frantically covering their arses in preparation for a massive raft of law suits, at all?

RedDogsBeg · 08/04/2021 12:02

Almost like some people are frantically covering their arses in preparation for a massive raft of law suits, at all?

Reminiscent of the volte face we never said anyone was born in the wrong body but if we did we didn't mean it performed by certain organisations.

Soontobe60 · 08/04/2021 12:12

Yet again, common sense is prevailing. Sometimes when I read and see and hear things that I’ve always known to be incorrect, yet supposedly intelligent academics believe to be factual, I think either I’m going mad, developing Alzheimer’s or just plain stupid - despite my 1st class degree and Master’s.
I KNOW the moon isn’t made of cheese and the earth isn’t flat, yet some days I question myself.
I’m waiting for the pile on and an apology from the Endocrine Society for publishing this, with a hastily written retraction and a hefty donation to Mer*ds.

Helleofabore · 08/04/2021 12:24

It has got some interesting points about the current studies on male and female brain differences thanks to new scanning technology.

Well, that's going to be an interesting primer for a response from the 1600+ scientist signatories of the infamous letter

Yes, it is going to be rather a surprise to some people who have used the 'here are 1600+ scientists, including nobel laureates who agree with me'! Pity those threads are now full so we cannot post this as a rebuttal.

I think though, we will see lots of it on threads in the future.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 08/04/2021 12:32

It has got some interesting points about the current studies on male and female brain differences thanks to new scanning technology.

I was particularly interested to see this as I saw a recent appeal to an ethics board to discontinue the authorisation for a brain study as any outcome might have the potential to be triggering for some groups.

AdHominemNonSequitur · 08/04/2021 12:32

@EndoplasmicReticulum

In other news, the Royal Astronomical Society have confirmed that the earth in fact does orbit the sun.

How have we got to the position where this needs to be explained / argued about?

It's not complicated. It really isn't.

Well Quite!

I still feel a huge wash of relief and grateful to the endocrine society for ..well i don't know what really... wrestling back narrative control from the genderists ???

Sophoclesthefox · 08/04/2021 12:35

we need these studies to act as some kind of ballast against the inexorable rise of the zeppelin of unreason

I can’t let this beautifully crafted sentence go by without a shoutout, talkingto! Love it.

AdHominemNonSequitur · 08/04/2021 13:09

That is a thing of beauty.

Nonmaquillee · 08/04/2021 13:13

"we need these studies to act as some kind of ballast against the inexorable rise of the zeppelin of unreason"

Brilliant!

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2021 15:22

I wish I could share this with the earnest young person who told me trans people have 'intersex brains' the other day.

twelly · 08/04/2021 15:25

Well sex very clear - either or, whilst gender is a choice

Rubidium · 08/04/2021 15:35

Haven't The Endocrine Society been permitted to submit evidence for the defense (i.e. The Tavistock) in their appeal against the Keira Bell ruling?

Melroses · 08/04/2021 15:40

@Rubidium

Haven't The Endocrine Society been permitted to submit evidence for the defense (i.e. The Tavistock) in their appeal against the Keira Bell ruling?
I was wondering if this was the same society too.