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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Breaking News! The Endocrine Society Confirms that Sex is Biological, Dichotomous, Immutable, Determined at Conception and MUST NOT be Obfuscated by Referring to Gender!!

80 replies

IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk · 08/04/2021 10:41

From the recently released statement (taken slightly out of order):

Sex is an important biological variable that must be considered in the design and analysis of human and animal research. The terms sex and gender should not be used interchangeably. Sex is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes. By contrast, gender includes perception of the individual as male, female, or other, both by the individual and by society; both humans and animals have sex, but only humans have gender. Both sexes produce estrogens, androgens, and progestins; there are no male- or female-specific sex hormones, per se, although these steroids are present in substantially different levels in males and females.

Much of the American public is surprisingly prudish about the word sex; it has now become commonplace to use the seemingly more genteel term gender when one really means sex. In Moritz v Commissioner of Internal Revenue (469 F. 2d 466 [1972]), Ruth Bader Ginsburg (subsequently, The Honorable Ruth Bader Ginsburg) argued against discrimination “on the basis of sex” not “on the basis of gender,” thus clearly, knowledgeably, and presciently understanding that “sex” does not equal “gender.” In a decision 48 years later (Bostock v Clayton County, 590 US, decided June 15, 2020), the United States Supreme Court separately ruled against discrimination on the basis of gender. Gender is often misused as a synonym for sex—for example, when filling out forms for various activities, we are routinely asked to check a box labeled “gender,” but the only available options are boxes labeled “M” and “F.” But sex is not the same thing as gender and using these terms as equivalents obfuscates differences that are real and important in society in general and biomedical research in particular.

Sex is a biological concept. Asexual reproduction (cloning) is routine in microorganisms and some plants, but most vertebrates and all mammals have 2 distinct sexes. Even single-cell organisms have “mating types” to facilitate sexual reproduction. Only cells belonging to different mating types can fuse together to reproduce sexually (2, 3). Sexual reproduction allows for exchange of genetic information and promotes genetic diversity. The classical biological definition of the 2 sexes is that females have ovaries and make larger female gametes (eggs), whereas males have testes and make smaller male gametes (sperm); the 2 gametes fertilize to form the zygote, which has the potential to become a new individual. The advantage of this simple definition is first that it can be applied universally to any species of sexually reproducing organism. Second, it is a bedrock concept of evolution, because selection of traits may differ in the 2 sexes. Thirdly, the definition can be extended to the ovaries and testes, and in this way the categories—female and male—can be applied also to individuals who have gonads but do not make gametes.

It does onto confirm that:
Gender identity is a psychological concept that refers to an individual’s self-perception; while associations between gender identity, neuroanatomic, genetic, and hormone levels exist, a clear causative biological underpinning of gender identity remains to be demonstrated.

I have only skimmed but those are two very important points. Later on there is a rather large inconsistency as it mentions 'sex assigned at birth' Hmm and I haven't got time to finish the rest. I thought it was a positive step though.

There is lots of extremely interesting information about sex and sex hormones etc and how it all works so I'll read through it in detail when I have time.

academic.oup.com/edrv/advance-article/doi/10.1210/endrev/bnaa034/6159361#.YG386Eqj1v4.twitter

OP posts:
Cwenthryth · 08/04/2021 15:56

IIRC there are two “Endocrine Society” orgs....

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2021 15:56

@Cwenthryth

IIRC there are two “Endocrine Society” orgs....
Ahhhh, I see. Oh.
SunsetBeetch · 08/04/2021 15:58

@Cwenthryth

IIRC there are two “Endocrine Society” orgs....
Really? How strange!
OldCrone · 08/04/2021 16:02

@Cwenthryth

IIRC there are two “Endocrine Society” orgs....
It's the same one that published the transgender position statement which is very popular in some quarters. This one is a 'Scientific Statement' though.

www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/transgender-health

www.endocrine.org/advancing-research/scientific-statements/considering-sex-as-a-biological-variable-in-basic-and-clinical-studies

Datun · 08/04/2021 16:09

ArabellaScott

Cwenthryth
IIRC there are two “Endocrine Society” orgs....
Ahhhh, I see. Oh.

FIIIIIGHT!!!

EndoplasmicReticulum · 08/04/2021 16:15

Is it like the People's Front of Judea and the Judean People's Front?

Cwenthryth · 08/04/2021 16:16

Ok yes

So there is the “Society for Endocrinology” www.endocrinology.org/ which is the “ UK home of endocrinology. We bring together the global endocrine community to share ideas and advance our discipline.”

Then there is the “Endocrine Society” (this one) www.endocrine.org/ and based in Washington DC USA.

I remember because when the Good Law project got the USA one involved in opposing the Keira Bell ruling, it seemed really odd they roped in a foreign organisation when there was a British one.

But if it is the same society that is producing both statements that is really interesting, and heartening!

In one of my own professional specialisms there are two societies like this, one arose from the other as a splinter group due to a historical fallout between individuals. Wonder what the story is here.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 08/04/2021 16:22

Wonder what the story is here.

I don't think that there is a story as such. afaik, Endocrine Society is a huge international organisation. Rather like the Special Interest Groups within the UK's Royal Colleges and comparable professional organisations, I should think that PES are like a SIG within the Endocrine Society (Pediatric Endocrine Society) and that PES are the ones who might be speaking at the appeal although I don't know if they'll testify as individual clinical experts or on behalf of PES but not necessarily ES.

rogdmum · 08/04/2021 16:28

This statement/article is from the American based Endocrine Society (by looking at the authors and cross referencing).

Mummyoflittledragon · 08/04/2021 16:37

This is an interesting development. I hope some ground will be regained. Thank you for posting!

If there are 2 endocrine societies, will they agree?

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2021 17:01

@EndoplasmicReticulum

Is it like the People's Front of Judea and the Judean People's Front?
Grin looks like it!
Alex2112 · 08/04/2021 18:17

"The Endocrine Society Confirms that Sex is Biological, Dichotomous, Immutable, Determined at Conception and MUST NOT be Obfuscated by Referring to Gender!!"

Nothing needs to be added, something we all knew, but get called T.E.R.F. and/or trans phobic for saying.

I have an endocrinologist, and she has repeatedly stated that "trans women" are NOT women. She would try to educate and person wanting cross sex hormones.

Hopefully this is another nail in coffin of the insanity of trans ideology.

Endocrinologists know the facts of life.

Thingybob · 08/04/2021 21:40

It's hard to see how the transgender policy statement can sit along side the scientific statement.

"There is a durable biological underpinning to gender identity"

www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/transgender-health

"a clear causative biological underpinning of gender identity remains to be demonstrated."

www.endocrine.org/advancing-research/scientific-statements/considering-sex-as-a-biological-variable-in-basic-and-clinical-studies

SmokedDuck · 08/04/2021 22:48

[quote Thingybob]It's hard to see how the transgender policy statement can sit along side the scientific statement.

"There is a durable biological underpinning to gender identity"

www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/transgender-health

"a clear causative biological underpinning of gender identity remains to be demonstrated."

www.endocrine.org/advancing-research/scientific-statements/considering-sex-as-a-biological-variable-in-basic-and-clinical-studies[/quote]
It seems that way but I think they are maybe taking the statements from opposite viewpoints.

There is actually a durable link to gender identity. Most people, the vast majority, have a gender identity that matches their biological sex. That's a pretty significant correlation.

But as far as people where they don't have a match between sex and identity, or it's been somehow interrupted, there seems to be no biological underpinning to explain that.

IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk · 08/04/2021 23:04

[quote Thingybob]It's hard to see how the transgender policy statement can sit along side the scientific statement.

"There is a durable biological underpinning to gender identity"

www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/transgender-health

"a clear causative biological underpinning of gender identity remains to be demonstrated."

www.endocrine.org/advancing-research/scientific-statements/considering-sex-as-a-biological-variable-in-basic-and-clinical-studies[/quote]
Individuals may make choices due to other factors in their lives, but there do not seem to be external forces that genuinely cause individuals to change gender identity.

Although the specific mechanisms guiding the biological underpinnings of gender identity are not entirely understood, there is evolving consensus that being transgender is not a mental health disorder

The above is from the transgender health position statement, the new Sex as a Biological Variable refutes that directly and states:

Gender identity is a psychological concept that refers to an individual’s self-perception.

How does the Endocrine Society move forward from here? Presumably they are not intending to sack the writers of the latest paper as they have published it.

How can they resolve such an embarrassingly contradictory position? Both cannot be right so they have to resolve this or lose all credibility.

I wonder if the apparent different ‘departments’ - Advocacy and Advancing Research have a hierarchy? Maybe a Scientific Statement carries more weight than a Position Statement (you would hope but we can’t take anything for granted these days).

I think I will keep an eye on those documents.

OP posts:
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 08/04/2021 23:16

The Twitter altmetrics for the article in the OP show a distinct lack of engagement for the # of tweets involved (but most are RTs from a number of men, interestingly - including Will Malone, @lecanardnoir Benjamin Boyce et al).

oxfordjournals.altmetric.com/details/101690088/twitter

Manderleyagain · 08/04/2021 23:38

This is very strange isn't it. Are the authors endicronologists who work on hormonal disorders & problems rather than transgender medicine? I wonder if it suggests that the two areas of medicine are operating in separate bubbles? I remember that the UK based society didn't have any references to trans medicine on their web site and social media. This was at the time when the American org got permission to intervene to persuade the court to allow children to consent to puberty blockers.

Thingybob · 08/04/2021 23:45

@Manderleyagain

This is very strange isn't it. Are the authors endicronologists who work on hormonal disorders & problems rather than transgender medicine? I wonder if it suggests that the two areas of medicine are operating in separate bubbles? I remember that the UK based society didn't have any references to trans medicine on their web site and social media. This was at the time when the American org got permission to intervene to persuade the court to allow children to consent to puberty blockers.
I'm not sure who the authors are but I was curious to see if any had been signatories on the letter that was written a couple of years ago.

The only one I found amongst the signatures was Arthur P Arnold.

MaudTheInvincible · 08/04/2021 23:53

Most people, the vast majority, have a gender identity that matches their biological sex.

Do you have a link for the study which shows that? Interested to see it.

Cwenthryth · 09/04/2021 05:46

There is actually a durable link to gender identity. Most people, the vast majority, have a gender identity that matches their biological sex. That's a pretty significant correlation.

Firstly, correlation≠causation. Secondly, can you evidence this claim? Can you even evidence the “most people....have a gender identity” part?

AnyOldPrion · 09/04/2021 06:28

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

It has got some interesting points about the current studies on male and female brain differences thanks to new scanning technology.

I was particularly interested to see this as I saw a recent appeal to an ethics board to discontinue the authorisation for a brain study as any outcome might have the potential to be triggering for some groups.

Is the appeal to the ethics board something you can share?

It’s very telling that almost anything that would make the position clearer, both in science and in life (the perfect example being the police failing to record the really useful information that could have been gathered had they chosen to record ‘gender identity’ in addition to sex, rather than instead of) is manoeuvred off the board, generally with the claim it’s too difficult for the mental health of ‘trans people’ even though ‘being trans’ is definitely not a mental health condition.

Lovelydaybut · 09/04/2021 07:49

I think you will find that the endocrine organisations exist on a spectrum. So there aren’t just two, as previously thought

InvisibleDragon · 09/04/2021 08:06

This is great.

I've noticed that scientists can struggle to find a reliable reference for statements like "there are two sexes, male and female," because this had until so recently been taken for granted as totally obvious.

It looks like this document will fix that.

I also like their description of the purpose of their statement:

Scientific Statements educate basic scientists, clinical scientists, and clinicians on the scientific basis of disease and on how this knowledge can be applied in clinical practice. These publications provide an evidence-based overview of basic and clinical science topics and identify areas that require additional research. Topics are selected on the basis of their emerging scientific impact on disease and their clinical relevance to the general population. Scientific Statements are developed by a multidisciplinary Task Force of experts with representation from several committees within the Endocrine Society.

It reads a bit like "we didn't realise it was so important to state the obvious, but here you go."

And that the paper has named authors, many of whom are women Smile

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 09/04/2021 08:27

@Lovelydaybut

I think you will find that the endocrine organisations exist on a spectrum. So there aren’t just two, as previously thought
Grin
ChattyLion · 09/04/2021 08:31

I think you will find that the endocrine organisations exist on a spectrum. So there aren’t just two, as previously thought

Lovelyday GrinGrinGrin