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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Breaking News! The Endocrine Society Confirms that Sex is Biological, Dichotomous, Immutable, Determined at Conception and MUST NOT be Obfuscated by Referring to Gender!!

80 replies

IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk · 08/04/2021 10:41

From the recently released statement (taken slightly out of order):

Sex is an important biological variable that must be considered in the design and analysis of human and animal research. The terms sex and gender should not be used interchangeably. Sex is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes. By contrast, gender includes perception of the individual as male, female, or other, both by the individual and by society; both humans and animals have sex, but only humans have gender. Both sexes produce estrogens, androgens, and progestins; there are no male- or female-specific sex hormones, per se, although these steroids are present in substantially different levels in males and females.

Much of the American public is surprisingly prudish about the word sex; it has now become commonplace to use the seemingly more genteel term gender when one really means sex. In Moritz v Commissioner of Internal Revenue (469 F. 2d 466 [1972]), Ruth Bader Ginsburg (subsequently, The Honorable Ruth Bader Ginsburg) argued against discrimination “on the basis of sex” not “on the basis of gender,” thus clearly, knowledgeably, and presciently understanding that “sex” does not equal “gender.” In a decision 48 years later (Bostock v Clayton County, 590 US, decided June 15, 2020), the United States Supreme Court separately ruled against discrimination on the basis of gender. Gender is often misused as a synonym for sex—for example, when filling out forms for various activities, we are routinely asked to check a box labeled “gender,” but the only available options are boxes labeled “M” and “F.” But sex is not the same thing as gender and using these terms as equivalents obfuscates differences that are real and important in society in general and biomedical research in particular.

Sex is a biological concept. Asexual reproduction (cloning) is routine in microorganisms and some plants, but most vertebrates and all mammals have 2 distinct sexes. Even single-cell organisms have “mating types” to facilitate sexual reproduction. Only cells belonging to different mating types can fuse together to reproduce sexually (2, 3). Sexual reproduction allows for exchange of genetic information and promotes genetic diversity. The classical biological definition of the 2 sexes is that females have ovaries and make larger female gametes (eggs), whereas males have testes and make smaller male gametes (sperm); the 2 gametes fertilize to form the zygote, which has the potential to become a new individual. The advantage of this simple definition is first that it can be applied universally to any species of sexually reproducing organism. Second, it is a bedrock concept of evolution, because selection of traits may differ in the 2 sexes. Thirdly, the definition can be extended to the ovaries and testes, and in this way the categories—female and male—can be applied also to individuals who have gonads but do not make gametes.

It does onto confirm that:
Gender identity is a psychological concept that refers to an individual’s self-perception; while associations between gender identity, neuroanatomic, genetic, and hormone levels exist, a clear causative biological underpinning of gender identity remains to be demonstrated.

I have only skimmed but those are two very important points. Later on there is a rather large inconsistency as it mentions 'sex assigned at birth' Hmm and I haven't got time to finish the rest. I thought it was a positive step though.

There is lots of extremely interesting information about sex and sex hormones etc and how it all works so I'll read through it in detail when I have time.

academic.oup.com/edrv/advance-article/doi/10.1210/endrev/bnaa034/6159361#.YG386Eqj1v4.twitter

OP posts:
MrsBobDylan · 09/04/2021 08:39

My three children are being investigated for a genetic condition. They are XY and if they have this condition, it means I am a carrier because I am XX.

A good, if depressing, example of the indisputable nature of sex.

Mummyoflittledragon · 09/04/2021 09:04

@MaudTheInvincible

Most people, the vast majority, have a gender identity that matches their biological sex.

Do you have a link for the study which shows that? Interested to see it.

I’d also be interested to see that. And interested to learn how this was ascertained. Most people aren’t even aware of gender identity theory / politics. The only way this study (if indeed there is one) would produce such result is if the participants were given leading questions to agree they had a gender identity in the first place. Ergo a flawed study.

MrsBobDylan
I’m very sorry to hear that. I hope this doesn’t have implications on your boys’ health.

ChattyLion · 09/04/2021 09:05

MrsBob Flowers

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent · 09/04/2021 09:31

It sounds as if someone’s getting their ducks in a for when the litigation begins.

GIDS started it by saying that they don’t decided to prescribe puberty blockers to trans children, they only refer to the endocrinologists. This sounds like the endocrinologists batting it back to the psychologists.

Manderleyagain · 09/04/2021 14:08

Thingybob
"I'm not sure who the authors are but I was curious to see if any had been signatories on the letter that was written a couple of years ago.

The only one I found amongst the signatures was Arthur P Arnold."

Which letter is that? Do you mean the 1600 ppl in response to trump's policies?

Thingybob · 09/04/2021 14:23

@Manderleyagain

Thingybob "I'm not sure who the authors are but I was curious to see if any had been signatories on the letter that was written a couple of years ago.

The only one I found amongst the signatures was Arthur P Arnold."

Which letter is that? Do you mean the 1600 ppl in response to trump's policies?

Yes that letter.

I was curious as to whether any of the authors had previously made any kind of public statement or been involved in the debate on gender issues. I was surprised that nothing obvious turned up on Google for the other authors.

Nameitychangity · 09/04/2021 17:04

Great news.
Maybe someone should tell certain (former comedian) public figures who muddy the waters for young impressionable children by saying things like they have "both girl and boy genetics", and all the many many Youtubers decrying anyone daring to state biology is real, with accusations of transphobia.
Biology is real.
Sex is binary.
Whodathunkit?

Anovaneway · 09/04/2021 17:09

gender includes perception of the individual as male, female, or other, both by the individual and by society;

Indeed.

IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk · 09/04/2021 17:26

There are people on a thread about this paper on twitter saying that it makes them feel unsafe.

I wonder how we've got to the point in people's mental health where a scientific paper stating that biological sex is important makes people feel unsafe. This does not bode well for their future and I wonder what the solution is to help them move forward.

It seems that the current approach of affirmation is not working, partly because it can never be complete - there are always going to be gaps - not least in irrefutable reality.

btw, this is quite a genuine concern - I honestly think we've got to find a better way because it seems to be an ineffective solution for the people it is supposed to help and it is certainly not working for women.

OP posts:
Nameitychangity · 09/04/2021 17:36

Its the situation we've somehow gotten ourselves into when we tell children it is possible to change sex.
By pandering to the impossible.
It has become too 'triggering' for some people to be confronted by the reality of both science and their biology, and anything which reinforces that (or confirms it) is seen as something bad.
Sex matters. It always has, and you cant outrun it, deny it, hide it, or change it.
It's sad if some people feel threatened by scientific confirmation of what we all already know.

R0wantrees · 09/04/2021 19:14

GIDS started it by saying that they don’t decide to prescribe puberty blockers to trans children, they only refer to the endocrinologists. This sounds like the endocrinologists batting it back to the psychologists.

This is only the beginning of an ever more complex 'pass the hot potato'.

Datun · 09/04/2021 19:22

Most people, the vast majority, have a gender identity that matches their biological sex.

No they don't!

Most people don't have gender dysphoria.

Zeev · 09/04/2021 19:53

I wonder how we've got to the point in people's mental health where a scientific paper stating that biological sex is important makes people feel unsafe. This does not bode well for their future and I wonder what the solution is to help them move forward.

This is an important point. And what is also important is, how far are we, as a society, willing to go to coddle people who feel unsafe because of scientific papers? We never do it when religious people get upset about scientific papers concerning evolution. We don't hide away research about the Big Bang, even though many millions of people all around the world believe that the world was created 6000 years ago. Why is this issue so very different, and why must we be so reactive towards these people and their emotional states?

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent · 09/04/2021 23:37

This is only the beginning of an ever more complex 'pass the hot potato'

It really is! In the Keira Bell case, the Tavistock passed two potatoes - one to the endocrinologists, the other to NHS England regarding commissioning them to follow WPATH standards of care.

It’ll be interesting to see where NHS England will chuck their hot potato. It depends where the recommendation to follow WPATH came from...

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 10/04/2021 00:35

In some areas NHS England has created the rod for its own back through some staff appointments, the selection of training suppliers, obsession with purchasing virtue points from affiliation with some popular organisations and frankly wilful lack of due diligence.

ShastaBeast · 10/04/2021 06:50

@Zeev

I wonder how we've got to the point in people's mental health where a scientific paper stating that biological sex is important makes people feel unsafe. This does not bode well for their future and I wonder what the solution is to help them move forward.

This is an important point. And what is also important is, how far are we, as a society, willing to go to coddle people who feel unsafe because of scientific papers? We never do it when religious people get upset about scientific papers concerning evolution. We don't hide away research about the Big Bang, even though many millions of people all around the world believe that the world was created 6000 years ago. Why is this issue so very different, and why must we be so reactive towards these people and their emotional states?

I wonder if it’s because religious people’s faith is much stronger, along with the science of evolution and astrophysics being harder to understand. On the other hand, sex is pretty straightforward and obvious, therefore harder to deny. The belief of the genderists is weaker and they are very insecure, which is why they lash out at the slightest misstep. I remember being glared at by a teenage trans boy, just waiting for me to say the wrong thing when talking about his ‘boyfriend’ - also trans since meeting him.

I also wonder if the internet and computers in general is an issue, not just for spreading misinformation but for allowing people to escape reality so much and disconnect from our bodies, even more so for ASD kids who already feel they don’t fit in and seek an escape. These kids aren’t going to be functioning members of society, not just the trans ones, this is a wider issue. They just can’t cope with normal life. Perhaps it’s time to be cruel to be kind.

R0wantrees · 10/04/2021 07:38

It really is! In the Keira Bell case, the Tavistock passed two potatoes - one to the endocrinologists, the other to NHS England regarding commissioning them to follow WPATH standards of care.

It’ll be interesting to see where NHS England will chuck their hot potato. It depends where the recommendation to follow WPATH came from...

GIDS statement "Our Gender Identity Development Service
4 November 2018
(extract)
"The GIDS was founded in 1989 and is one of the longest standing services for gender diverse children and young people in the world. Domenico Di Ceglie, who founded the service, wrote a set of therapeutic aims which we still abide by today. This includes the unconditional acceptance and respect for young people’s gender identity. We do not therefore take a view regarding the outcome of an individual’s gender identity development: rather, our focus is to provide a space for exploration of gender, to ameliorate any negative impacts on general development and to work with young people to think through all the options open to them. These principles remain central to the delivery of the service." (continues)
tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/news/stories/our-gender-identity-development-service/

Dominico Di Ceglie paper, 'Castaway's Corner' published Clin Child Psychol Psychiatry 2002 7: 487 describes the setting up of Tavistock GIDS service for children and Mermaids parent support group and is worth reading.

Di Ceglie wrote the service specifications of GIDS which they still follow. He also remains a member of the board there.

Within the principles that he asserted is the belief that children have a 'gender identity'.

The 'first case' which piqued his interest was a distressed teenage girl. Whether she had undiagnosed ASD / ADHD, had been subjected to abuse or was a lesbian no-one will know. Note how he took her case despite having no relevant experience or knowledge because he thought it would be good training opportunity and it piqued his curiosity.
www.researchgate.net/publication/270564195_Castaway%27s_Corner

One of Di Ceglie's next patients (a young boy) would likely have being more appropriately supported by an experienced Child Protection Social Worker or play therapist

(extract)
"I used to see this 7-year-old boy after school as my last case. He made few demands of me as his therapist. This seemed to be the perfect patient to have at the end of a hard day. As soon as he walked in the room he would start to play with the dolls’ house, placing all the dolls, which I had provided, in the little rooms apparently totally ignoring me and tidying up everything near the end of the session. The problem started when I asked him what he was playing. He came up with very elaborate fantasies on how all the children in the house were going to be killed by various means, including the use of poisonous gas released by a cylinder. I was shocked to find out that so much was going on in his mind in spite of the mild appearances of his behaviour. Within a Kleinian perspective (Klein, 1975), if the dolls’ house represented the body of the mother or his relationship with the mother there was very little of a benevolent nature going on there. So much for the ‘blissful’ relationship!" (continues)

"During the life of the service, staff and users have contributed creatively to its development. For instance, a mother of a child with gender identity disorders involved in a dispute over contact with her ex-partner, asked me during a court break if she could meet other parents facing similar issues. This was the start of a new development – the running of a group for parents of children with gender problems. This group became an important feature of our service and then led to the formation of a self-help organization called ‘Mermaids’. Mermaids had been the focus of discussion in one of the parents’ groups in an attempt to understand the fascination that some children have for these mythical creatures. ‘Mermaids’ is a complementary organization to our service, which offers the kind of help and support that we, as professionals, cannot. Their social activities and networks provide, in my view, a space within society in which children and teenagers with unusual gender development can feel accepted. Their social isolation is reduced and they can start to feel part of a community"

R0wantrees · 10/04/2021 07:44

Bernadette Wren: on change
Interview by Glenn Gossling 2020, for In Mind magazine
(extract)
"Bernadette Wren is a Consultant Clinical Psychologist and Systemic Family Therapist who worked at the Tavi for twenty five years as a clinician, trainer, supervisor and head of the Psychology discipline. In her time at the Tavi she was deeply involved with the GIDS team, working there initially in 1997-2000 and then from 2011 until her retirement in 2020. In that time she has seen significant change, but much continuity too, in the challenges to that service. “At the time I went back, even though the team was tiny, there were many differences between the clinicians in how they conceptualised the clinical and theoretical issues. Real tensions existed.” (continues)

"She joined GIDS in 1997 after qualifying at the Tavi as a family therapist on M6. She says, “After I qualified, there was a very part-time job going in the Gender Identity Service, then housed in a tiny office at the Portman. I think I was the fourth staff member. At the time it really wasn’t comfortable being at the Portman; we felt very marginalised.” In fact one of the early, very public, critiques of gender clinics came from within the Portman in 2002, when a group of adult clinicians wrote to the Telegraph strongly asserting the ‘delusional’ nature of transgender identities.

Bernadette takes a thoughtful view of this, saying, “The Portman then, as now, would have been the clinic taking on as adult patients people who were among the small number voicing regret for the surgeries they had undergone. But clinicians tended to build their whole understanding of trans identities on working with that group of patients. In GIDS, meeting very young people, we saw things differently.”

In 1995 Domenico de Ceglie set out the therapeutic aims and values for GIDS by which the service still abides. These include the ‘unconditional acceptance and respect’ for young people’s expression of their gender identity. “Those therapeutic aims still represent the core values of the service – they’re Domenico’s lasting legacy,” says Bernadette. “He grasped that if you want to have a genuine engagement with young people you have to take very seriously what they feel and what they say.” And she adds: “if you want to know how GIDS still operates, read Domenico’s aims.” (continues)
100years.tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/bernadette-wren-on-change/?v=79cba1185463

YouSetTheTone · 10/04/2021 09:37

I wonder how we've got to the point in people's mental health where a scientific paper stating that biological sex is important makes people feel unsafe. This does not bode well for their future and I wonder what the solution is to help them move forward.

There’s a book out called ‘The Coddling of the American mind’ which I think is supposed to be interesting on this issue. I started it a while ago and it was very good but got sidetracked (small kids/ lock down etc) but must pick it up again.

Nonmaquillee · 10/04/2021 09:43

Agree with those who question how people manage to function in the big bad world when they find biological facts so threatening.

Alex2112 · 10/04/2021 14:17

This reply has been deleted

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Signalbox · 10/04/2021 17:35

Both statements are from the same organisation.

They know that biological sex is real and that it matters.
They also want to make ££££££££ from transitioning teens.

Endocrine Society and partners to intervene in U.K. transgender medicine court appeal

www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2021/endocrine-society-and-partners-to-intervene-in-uk-transgender-medicine-court-appeal

Biological differences between females, males need to be considered in scientific studies

www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2021/biological-differences-between-females-males-need-to-be-considered-in-scientific-studies

GNCQ · 10/04/2021 22:20

I wonder how we've got to the point in people's mental health where a scientific paper stating that biological sex is important makes people feel unsafe
It's a reference to the suicide myth isn't it.

GNCQ · 10/04/2021 22:21

Gender ideology myth number 1. Trans people kill themselves if you remind them of their sex

GNCQ · 10/04/2021 22:23

^Sorry no that's myth 5 actually