Dr Debbie Hayton interview

[ChristinaXYZ]

In case you haven't seen it.

“I worry that trans people are being used in a political campaign to compromise women’s spaces”

So, if the NASUWT have known for years about sexual harassment why have they been silent? and yet not silent on transition advice?

Its a very good question. I suspect of all of us on the thread @DebbieInBirmingham is best placed as "an activist within the NASUWT [who] also sits on the NASUWT LGBT Advisory Committee" to provide insight.
www.tuc.org.uk/person/debbie-hayton

Another gentle prod @DebbieInBirmingham.

Another question for @debbieinbirmingham

Can a female teacher transitioning take advantage of the better male pension benefits? The guidance was curiously lacking on female teachers transitioning even though the majority of teachers are female..

@highame

So, if the NASUWT have known for years about sexual harassment why have they been silent? and yet not silent on transition advice?

I am wondering what use Unions are for (also referencing the Batley debacle). Is it just jobs for reps? Answered my own question?

It’s not just the Unions that have known for years. The government’s own WESC produced a report on sexual harassment of girls in schools several years ago, in which the horrendous scale of the problem was clearly apparent.

What action did the government take? None. Nothing. Now, when the girls themselves have started shouting about it and attracted lots of publicity to the issue, suddenly it’s unacceptable and something must be done.

Meanwhile in the intervening years, trans rights groups have vigorously lobbied for the implementation of policies that strip girls of their rights and boundaries still further, and many of the people holding their hands up in horror and wailing about sexual harassment now will be the very same ones who were happily doing away with girls’ right to say they don’t consent to having male pupils in their toilets and changing rooms.

Or female teachers’ right to say they don’t consent to having male colleagues in their toilets and changing rooms.

And their right to be listened to.

The hypocrisy makes me puke.

The guidance was curiously lacking on female teachers transitioning even though the majority of teachers are female.

Strange, that.

Buzzfield
Posted on 17 Apr 2016
'This Is What It's Like Being A Transgender Teacher In Britain'
(extract)
"The same week Mary Magdalen’s emailed parents, another very similar email was sent [redacted] to a school in Coventry.

It told parents that a teacher would be returning to school in the new term in a female role after transitioning over the Christmas period. There were no complaints, there was no press intrusion, and Debbie Hayton returned to her job as a physics teacher in January. The email her school sent to parents went out on 21 December, the day the Littlejohn column was published.

“I was lucky,” Hayton told BuzzFeed News in her first interview about her transition and its effect upon her career.

Fast-forward a little over three years and there are signs of change in the profession. Earlier this month a motion was passed at the Association of Teachers and Lecturers (ATL) annual conference calling for teachers to receive more specialist support to help transgender children. (continues)

Hayton is 47, with 20 years experience as a teacher. She started considering her gender identity in the summer of 2011 and informed the school at an early stage, before deciding to transition the following Easter.

“I had worked in other schools before, and I’d been working nine years before the issues really erupted,” she told us.

“It was 2011 when things fell apart, you cope so long with internal denial with the situation, and I just couldn’t cope with it any longer.”

The reaction from the headteacher, senior staff, and the rest of the school was “as good as I could have expected”, Hayton said.

“Lucy Meadows’s email was sent out on Tuesday, mine was Friday. Nobody created a fuss, but my school has a liberal and enlightened ethos – it’s totally different to another school I worked at, where just supporting the wrong football team could have cast you out to the outer darkness. It just takes one person with unreconstructed ideas to create a fuss.”

She said: “Over the course of the afternoon I personally got a number of messages of support, which was very positive. The head had offered to stay behind for the next few days, but he wasn’t needed. There were no problems that came in.

“After the Lucy Meadows case you were worried, but nothing happened. I went away for the Christmas holidays, came back on the first day back and carried on as normal. The children were fantastic.” (continues)
www.buzzfeed.com/matthewchampion/this-is-what-its-like-being-a-transgender-teacher-in-britain

What exactly is a 'female role' for staff in school, is it really as Dr Hayton appears to have suggested previously being the wearer of skirts, long hair and jewellery whilst needing assistance to push trolleys and be ignored/ spoken over in staff meetings? Such sexist ideas are, in my opinion, far from being compatible with a "liberal and enlightened ethos"

Physics World, Education & Outreach
'Gender balance, one woman at a time'
29 Sep 2016

(extract)
"When physics teacher Debbie Hayton transitioned from male to female, she conducted some “controlled social observations” in her classroom. In this article (originally published in Lateral Thoughts, Physics World’s regular column of humorous and offbeat essays about physics and physicists), she reflects on her experiences

"...The following day the other class sat in the same place as I geared up for a repeat performance. For some now forgotten reason, however, I had chosen to wear a skirt that day rather than trousers. I was already well into my run-up when I realized that the activity needed to be replanned as a matter of urgency. The class had to make do with the balloon being stuck to the wall on the other side of the room.

Some activities have definitely got better. I now join the other long-haired people on the styrofoam platform when the Van de Graaff generator comes out, and jewellery can be very useful when demonstrating magnetic and non-magnetic materials. Much of mine, it seems, is fabricated from mild steel rather than more precious materials. But in other respects I miss things that I took for granted. Moving heavy trolleys with dodgy wheels is more of a struggle as I have lost upper body strength and I have first-hand experience of the different way that men and women can be perceived when they open their mouths in meetings. I hasten to add that children seem remarkably free of the prejudices that seem to trouble some folks of my generation about women when it comes to physics and engineering.

But does having a female teacher in years 10 and 11 help girls decide whether to take A-level physics? After four years the answer seems to be “probably not”. Changing my gender role seems to have had no more effect than other strategies that I have employed over the years... In any case, I can sense a sigh of relief from my male colleagues: none of you need to take this particular plunge for the sake of physics."

physicsworld.com/a/gender-balance-one-woman-at-a-time/

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

Another gentle prod *@DebbieInBirmingham*.

Maybe Dr Hayton is still recovering from the exertions of being a returning officer at the NASUWT conference this weekend - too fatigued to answer our questions.

There must have been many more pressing concerns than reviewing the NASUWT guidance on trans staff as it doesn’t seem to have been on the agenda, however much it might have seemed to be the ideal opportunity to revisit those guidelines when there is so much new found interest in the issue of male staff and pupils violating female staff and pupils’ boundaries.

Or are some forms of harassment of women and girls just the “wrong” sort, and not deserving of being addressed?

Meanwhile in the intervening years, trans rights groups have vigorously lobbied for the implementation of policies that strip girls of their rights and boundaries still further, and many of the people holding their hands up in horror and wailing about sexual harassment now will be the very same ones who were happily doing away with girls’ right to say they don’t consent to having male pupils in their toilets and changing rooms.

Or female teachers’ right to say they don’t consent to having male colleagues in their toilets and changing rooms.

And their right to be listened to.

The hypocrisy makes me puke.

Presumably any parents, female pupils or staff with objections would be regarded as the type of, "person with unreconstructed ideas... creating a fuss."?

It just takes one person with unreconstructed ideas to create a fuss.

Wow, R0. That’s reminiscent of James Barrett’s infamous comment that the only women prisoners who would object to having “Karen Jones” imprisoned with them (biologically male trans person, convicted previously of manslaughter and then of attempted rape) would be the sort of women who enjoy conflict.

Totally take on board the concerns about the situation in schools and teachers have clearly followed these issues much more closely than I have and are more qualified to comment. I still think it was a good and thoughtful interview and gave the impression of someone with a level of awareness. Not sure that the interview offered the scope for much comment on the domestic implications though you could argue that these were somewhat glossed over. Good that this post created some dialogue with DH as obviously there is still a way to go in terms of the discussion.

having a regular column in the Spectator.

Have you approached Fraser Nelson/relevant editor with a specimen column and asked for a piece to be considered? (I don't know how these things are done.)

Presumably any parents, female pupils or staff with objections would be regarded as the type of, "person with unreconstructed ideas... creating a fuss."?

Such bigoted old dinosaurs we are, resisting those “liberal and enlightened” ideas like doing away with the boundaries afforded to the more vulnerable sex!

That’s reminiscent of James Barrett’s infamous comment that the only women prisoners who would object to having “Karen Jones” imprisoned with them (biologically male trans person, convicted previously of manslaughter and then of attempted rape) would be the sort of women who enjoy conflict.

I had the same thought as I read it.

Jones' successful appeal against the Home Office which enabled transfer to the female prison estate is shocking in that there was no apparent discussion or assessment of impact on women prisoners or staff except the following evidence from an expert in gender dysphoria, Dr James Barrett of the Gender Identity Clinic, Charing Cross Hospital. Barrett had known the Claimant for many years and explained why living in role in female accommodation was, in his opinion required:

(extract)
"it will become clear that she is so widely accepted as female in that unit that location in the main prison will follow. I think that such acceptance will pretty generally apply in the main prison, also, although there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world."

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/2220.html

(Jones had been convicted of manslaughter of his male partner and subsequently attempted rape of a woman working in a shop whilst released on licence)

I still think it was a good and thoughtful interview and gave the impression of someone with a level of awareness.

In November/ December last year Dr Hayton was maintaining a position that some male prisoners (such as himself) should be housed in female prison estate commenting:

"That article [Centre for Crime and Justice published March 2019] was rather more considered, and I stand by it, particularly the final part:

"While I may claim that I am not a threat to women personally, it would be a courageous move for the prison service to arrange accommodation according to what offenders claims about themselves. Prisons are segregated according to biological sex for good reasons, and feelings are a poor reason for breaking that policy.

My request to be housed in the female estate would be based on my sex characteristics. Flesh and blood is more important than feelings – or even legal paperwork – when housing prisoners. However, should that request be denied, I would not want to be assigned with sex offenders to a high security unit and possibly a long way from home.

In my case, being housed with men might be the least worst option."

www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/are-transgender-prison-wings-answer

As an aside, I remain concerned that a secondary school science teacher would claim (erroneously) that their male body altered by cosmetic surgery and/or medication had 'female sex characteristics'. Female sexual characteristics are the vagina, uterus, fallopian tubes, clitoris, cervix, and the ability to bear children, breasts, ability to nurse children, a menstrual cycle, and increased body fat composition. These are sex specific for the purpose of reproduction.
Human development and reproduction being important parts of the science as well as PSHE curriculum.

Dr James Barrett of the Gender Identity Clinic, Charing Cross Hospital. Barrett had known the Claimant for many years and explained why living in role in female accommodation was, in his opinion required:

Barrett demonstrated greater nuance on the general topic later, iirc? I always thought his original testimony and concerns reeked of class-based disdain for women.

Barrett (2015 Parliamentary submission, iirc):

the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard

peaktrans.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/James-Barrett-submission.pdf

@flyingfoxkins

Totally take on board the concerns about the situation in schools and teachers have clearly followed these issues much more closely than I have and are more qualified to comment. I still think it was a good and thoughtful interview and gave the impression of someone with a level of awareness. Not sure that the interview offered the scope for much comment on the domestic implications though you could argue that these were somewhat glossed over. Good that this post created some dialogue with DH as obviously there is still a way to go in terms of the discussion.

I totally hear where you’re coming from. It feels like such a relief to come across a trans person who seems to be a real ally to women, and who is public and vocal about that.

But I think we have to be very careful of biologically male people who appear to be advocating for us, and who are adept at recognising and calling out abuses against women and girls committed by others, but who have themselves been part of that systemic abuse against us. And who show no signs of desisting from that particular form of abuse. The “dialogue”, such as it was, seems to have stalled.

Those NASUWT guidelines have not been reviewed or retracted. They are still on the NASUWT website. They constitute a form of abuse of women and girls (and boys) in schools, in terms of the violation of women’s and girls’ boundaries and compelled speech for all.

There is no amount of abuse that is acceptable and should be tolerated because other forms of abuse are absent. None.

@rowantrees, I take your point about some of the issues. Imagine DH isnt very popular with a lot of TRAs though. Fairly new to this board and learning a lot from the contributions on this subject. DH did quite a good article on what has happened in the Green Party at the recent conference.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

It just takes one person with unreconstructed ideas to create a fuss.

Wow, R0. That’s reminiscent of James Barrett’s infamous comment that the only women prisoners who would object to having “Karen Jones” imprisoned with them (biologically male trans person, convicted previously of manslaughter and then of attempted rape) would be the sort of women who enjoy conflict.

So women who don't want to share a cell with a killer and sex offender only object because they enjoy conflict, women who don't want to share their toileting facilities with male born individuals are unreconstructed (what on earth does that mean? Old fashioned fuddy duddies?) and just making a fuss, and even the head of the women and equalities committee called women campaigning to preserve female boundaries, 'women purporting to be feminists'.

I'm detecting a theme here.

Is it going to be our youth, our young, teenage girls, pointing out the relentless misogyny running rampant through society, who will finally make people listen?

Or will a dismissive name be found for them, too?

NASUWT submission to recent Women and Equalities consultation:

(extract)
"Spousal consent provisions within the GRA
28.The NASUWT supports the right and freedom of the individual to
exercise their human rights without the consent of others. If no medical certificate is required to obtain legal gender recognition, then spousal consent is also unnecessary. Self-declaration implies that the decision lies with the individual; therefore, this would be negated by adding a layer of consent elsewhere.

29.The NASUWT also believes that spousal consent gives the spouse inappropriate power and risks issues of coercive control, which is a criminal offence under Section 76 of the Serious Crime Act 2015.

What else should the Government have included in its proposals?
30.The NASUWT believes that the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 and the Gender Recognition Act 2004 should be extended to recognise and include non-binary people."

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/17380/pdf/

Cf 'The Spousal Exit Clause: Trans Widows’s Rights Are Not Yours to Give Away'
uncommongroundmedia.com/spousal-exit-clause/

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

having a regular column in the Spectator.

Have you approached Fraser Nelson/relevant editor with a specimen column and asked for a piece to be considered? (I don't know how these things are done.)

No. I am a normal working single mother, who combines grassroots activism with a full time job, so alas cannot avail myself of such hypothetical opportunities.

I have no training in journalism either, but then maybe these days you just need a perceived USP.

I also believe that once you start making money out of your activism you have an interest in perpetuating the very issue you are purporting to try and solve, so there's that too.

[quote R0wantrees]NASUWT submission to recent Women and Equalities consultation:

(extract)
"Spousal consent provisions within the GRA
28.The NASUWT supports the right and freedom of the individual to
exercise their human rights without the consent of others. If no medical certificate is required to obtain legal gender recognition, then spousal consent is also unnecessary. Self-declaration implies that the decision lies with the individual; therefore, this would be negated by adding a layer of consent elsewhere.

29.The NASUWT also believes that spousal consent gives the spouse inappropriate power and risks issues of coercive control, which is a criminal offence under Section 76 of the Serious Crime Act 2015.

What else should the Government have included in its proposals?
30.The NASUWT believes that the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 and the Gender Recognition Act 2004 should be extended to recognise and include non-binary people."

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/17380/pdf/

Cf 'The Spousal Exit Clause: Trans Widows’s Rights Are Not Yours to Give Away'
uncommongroundmedia.com/spousal-exit-clause/[/quote]
The Unions (and everybody else) butting in about the spousal exit clause is a good example of which members write their guidance documents and which members are not even consulted. (Clue: my union has never consulted me about the spousal exit clause because I am not LGBT).

[quote flyingfoxkins]@rowantrees, I take your point about some of the issues. Imagine DH isnt very popular with a lot of TRAs though. Fairly new to this board and learning a lot from the contributions on this subject. DH did quite a good article on what has happened in the Green Party at the recent conference.[/quote]
I would encourage women new to FWR to read previous relevant threads:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605090-Boundaries-and-Allies

Thanks @DebbieInBirmingham for your work. I'm sure we don't agree on 100% of things (like the earlier union guidance) but your recent work is definitely bringing sane sunlight to my pupils on trans issues and biology in a way that is both respectful and sensitive to people with gender dysphoria and doesn't deny biology or lead girls to be forced to give up their spaces.
I am very pro third spaces in schools.

@ROwantrees - thanks for the links.

I am glad that DH shares opinions about pronouns and single sex spaces which go against the mantra of the lobby groups.

But, I notice how often DH manages to fit in some comment about their body. For instance, that if in prison, they would need a shower alone because that is where they believe they pass best.

Women don't tend to insert comment about their naked body into conversation. I don't want to be part of DH's AGP behaviour.