Dr Debbie Hayton interview

[ChristinaXYZ]

In case you haven't seen it.

“I worry that trans people are being used in a political campaign to compromise women’s spaces”

@DebbieInBirmingham

The key questions for me are:
1. Should adults be able to modify their bodies in order to feel more comfortable with them?
2. Should we be restricted by sexist dress codes?

1. If they really want to, I would suggest talking therapies before medical body modification though.
2. No, not beyond decency and appropriateness. So a formal suit with skirt or trousers in a formal setting, for example.

My key questions are:
a) why would a grown man want his passport and driving licence to show female incorrectly?
b) why would a man request to use women's spaces?
c) why would an adult male teacher ask teenagers to call him "miss"?

2. No, not beyond decency and appropriateness. So a formal suit with skirt or trousers in a formal setting, for example.

'These Chains That Have No Name: Interview with Trans Widows Voices' By Donovan Cleckley
-March 31, 202
(extract)
"I encountered an interesting example of denialism recently among gender-critical feminists in the UK. There was a story in the newspapers here about a man who worked in a supermarket and how he had obtained the agreement of his employers to wear a skirt – that is, the female uniform, rather than the trousers customary for male employees. He said that he doesn’t think that he is a woman; he just finds women’s clothes more comfortable.

Gender-critical feminists believe that gender nonconformity is perfectly acceptable, and that, if more people were accepted when they showed nonconformity with sex-role stereotypes, there would be no need for people to feel that they have to transition. These feminists believe that the problem is not in what you wear; it is in the idea that what you wear can change your sex. Unfortunately, in this instance, the desire of many feminists to show that they are accepting of gender-nonconforming behavior entirely overrode their usual ability to think critically. They took the man’s claims entirely at face value, and, for a couple of days, gender-critical social media was full of women saying “Good on him!,” “We need more of this!,” etc. What they failed to notice was that the man in question, if you applied a modicum of critical thought to the article, was very plainly autogynephilic and had been given a license to exercise his fetish at work. Aside from wearing a skirt, if you actually looked at the images of him, he was wearing women’s shoes, stockings/tights, and a padded bra. Further, he described a typical pattern of escalating boundary-breaching behavior – and that he had high heels, makeup, and wigs at home. Also, he described, in his own words, ‘borrowing’ clothes from girlfriends. He was duping everybody around him about his motivation.

Some of the women supportively sharing the article became very defensive when challenged, even when challenged by women who had their own experience of living with this kind of behavior and who they would usually support. The only bright side of the whole sorry incident, is that it convinced me that those women who look down on us for not leaving sooner, and who say they would have left at the first sign of that sort of behaviour, are actually just as gullible as we were, if not more so. We all want others to think that we are not bigots, but it behooves us all to think about when our performance of not being bigoted toward crossdressing men becomes actively bigoted against women." (continues)

www.womenarehuman.com/these-chains-that-have-no-name-interview-with-trans-widows-voices/

@oldcrone: "What makes a man want to be a woman which isn't either about sexist 'gender roles' or about a fetish?"

An inwardly directed sexual orientation. Causes psychological distress until it is understood for what it is.

Causes psychological distress until it is understood for what it is.

And what is it?

An inwardly directed sexual orientation. Causes psychological distress until it is understood for what it is.

Does that relieve the distress?

If the AGP accepts that their erotic target, the woman they thought they were, isn’t really a woman, but a man who likes to think of himself as a woman, then doesn’t that destroy that primary erotic target?

Essentially isn’t it then a sexual orientation that can never be consummated? How do you deal with that?

[quote DebbieInBirmingham]@oldcrone "Perhaps Debbie or Robin could tell us what they think makes a man into a woman which isn't either about a sexist 'gender role' or about a fetish."

It's more fundamental than that: men can't become women. As I told Triggernometry, transwomen are [still] men.

The key questions for me are:

1. Should adults be able to modify their bodies in order to feel more comfortable with them?
2. Should we be restricted by sexist dress codes?[/quote]

I think the questions are a little different

1. Should society accept people modifying their bodies in order to feel more comfortable with them?

If yes to 1.

1. Should that person acquire the right to use single sex provisions for the opposite sex even though that will make many women uncomfortable?

Do you think Rachel Dolezal should have been able to modify her body in order to feel more comfortable with it and have that accepted by society

[quote DebbieInBirmingham]@oldcrone: "What makes a man want to be a woman which isn't either about sexist 'gender roles' or about a fetish?"

An inwardly directed sexual orientation. Causes psychological distress until it is understood for what it is.[/quote]
And once it is "understood for what it is", what then? Can it be treated or cured? Because it doesn't sound like a healthy way to live.

One thing is certain though. The solution isn't to try to convince the rest of the world that that person is a woman. You say you have accepted this about yourself, but there are a lot of others out there who haven't, and at the moment the aim seems to be to convince the world that TWAW, including TW who have the same condition as you (whether they admit it or not).

Sorry DebbieInBirmingham I meant to ask my question a bit more sensitively than that came across.

That would be the TT 'guidance' with four invented 'case studies' all of which end in detransition

RobinMoiraWhite

Recent research published of a long term follow up study of 139 transgender boys finds that 87% desisted. This is congruent with most other studies that find a large majority will desist during the course of puberty. These case studies, if they end in desistance, are entirely representative.

@Anovaneway

An inwardly directed sexual orientation. Causes psychological distress until it is understood for what it is.

Does that relieve the distress?

If the AGP accepts that their erotic target, the woman they thought they were, isn’t really a woman, but a man who likes to think of himself as a woman, then doesn’t that destroy that primary erotic target?

Essentially isn’t it then a sexual orientation that can never be consummated? How do you deal with that?

It is an impossible problem but from personal experience the distress lifted when I could at least explain it.

Harry Benjamin recommended changing the body because you cannot change the mind. However, from the testimony of people like White (who has posted in this thread, I notice), changing the body doesn't appear to bring much in the way of peace and security. White seems annoyed with me for simply advancing arguments and debating ideas.

Ideally we wouldn't change either mind or body. Instead we should try and reconcile them. But that's hard. Especially after half a lifetime of denial.

If I had known in 2012 what I know now I would never have transitioned. It did bring immediate palliative relief, but it was a poor solution.

It only worked because I was convinced that I was some sort of woman. But it was nonsense. It took me several years to realise that. Only after dismantling those ideas have I been secure in myself.

@Datun

Causes psychological distress until it is understood for what it is.

And what is it?

And what does this condition assume womanhood to be?

This is where we so often have a problem, because womanhood is typically construed by the person with the condition as something quite reductive and often sexualised. Of course women object to a harmful interpretation of womanhood.

And what does this condition assume womanhood to be?

A cissified, patriarchal stereotype of femininity, judging by the testimony of trans widows forced into participating.

Perhaps Debbie has been able to individuate (in the Jungian integration of the conscious and unconscious self sense) and Robin is at an earlier stage on her journey towards wholeness and self awareness. Perhaps with hindsight it would have been possible without transition, but from the description of dysphoria it sound like it is rather all consuming and not conducive to psychological integration.

DebbieInBirmingham
Given you now acknowledge that your motivation is sexual, rather than "advancing arguments and debating ideas" here, wouldn't it be imperative to work to remove the guidance you informed?

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

DebbieInBirmingham Given you now acknowledge that your motivation is sexual, rather than "advancing arguments and debating ideas" here, wouldn't it be imperative to work to remove the guidance you informed?

Quite.

Thank you Debbie.
Yes behaviours can hold less (or a bit less) power over a person if they can understand where they’re coming from.

I guess transition has allowed you to heal underneath a cocoon. But we’ll never know if you could have achieved this without transition. It’s like transition is the treatment that allows you to realise that transition isn’t required. Another impossible problem.

Thank you for engaging.

your motivation is sexual,

A rather base and inadequate understanding. Sexuality is more than just the ‘sexual’.

rather than "advancing arguments and debating ideas" here, wouldn't it be imperative to work to remove the guidance you informed?

It’s an important topic that needs more understanding and discussion. Hardly out of place on this forum where these issues are discussed a lot.

I doubt many here are both qualified or motivated to help a man with autogynephilia or indeed to "advancing arguments" (whatever that means).

Many do, however, understand the safeguarding implications of the policies he helped create and know he is in a unique position to change them, if he wished.

Sexuality is more than just the ‘sexual’

AGP is not a sexuality and those who say it is,do so in order to minimise the effects on women and piggyback on LGB rights.

@Anovaneway

your motivation is sexual,

A rather base and inadequate understanding. Sexuality is more than just the ‘sexual’.

rather than "advancing arguments and debating ideas" here, wouldn't it be imperative to work to remove the guidance you informed?

It’s an important topic that needs more understanding and discussion. Hardly out of place on this forum where these issues are discussed a lot.

No man’s sex drive should inform any guidance for any school on anything, other than the understanding that all sexual proclivities should be kept private, not impact on colleagues, and most definitely not have any impact on any children whatsoever.

I don’t care what deeper meaning any teachers’ sexual proclivities hold for them. THEY SHOULD NOT INFORM SCHOOL GUIDANCES.

I don’t care what deeper meaning any teachers’ sexual proclivities hold for them. THEY SHOULD NOT INFORM SCHOOL GUIDANCES.

Absolutely. And it’s completely irresponsible to make this anything other than a blanket rule - regardless of whether or not the owner of said proclivity considers it harmless. This must surely be basic safeguarding and it’s pretty shocking that the NASUWT guidelines say otherwise.

"A woman only at weekends" . I wish. I was raped on a Wednesday.

AGP is a paraphillia, not a sexual orientation.
A common definition used worldwide from the DSM-IV:
“recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors generally involving i) non-human objects, ii) the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one’s partner, or iii) children or other non-consenting persons that occur over a period of at least 6 months”

There are a growing number of groups of (mostly) heterosexual men attempting to claim various paraphillic behaviours as sexual orientations and/or identities requiring protection. Such attempted minimisation is a serious Safeguarding and Child Protection issue.

And once it is "understood for what it is", what then? Can it be treated or cured? Because it doesn't sound like a healthy way to live

It sounds as if this is something that the person is going to have to live with pretty much for life, or until the orientation shifts or fades of its own accord.

Grayson Perry talks very revealingly and honestly about this in his memoir. Although, of course, Grayson Perry, has never made the leap into suggesting he is a woman.

I do think that some of the lines of questioning to Debbie are harsh. I think what they are doing, and admitting so publicly, is brave and with major implication for them in their life. Debbie will also know, and understand well, the power of the trans lobby to enforce compliance, not only in their intimate personal life, but in their public and professional life too.

Debbie's is an important voice in pushing back against this, and I wouldn't want to completely alienate them.

Essentially isn’t it then a sexual orientation that can never be consummated? How do you deal with that

Many people have strong drives, sexual urges and orientations which will never be consummated. A drive thwarted in this way will eventually be sublimated via another pursuit or different channel of expression.