Dr Debbie Hayton interview

[ChristinaXYZ]

In case you haven't seen it.

“I worry that trans people are being used in a political campaign to compromise women’s spaces”

A strong sense of my female self as a teenager included :
Sexual assault and harassment in school and by older men
Being pushed towards non academic subjects and assumed stupid because of my sex (I have a mensa level IQ)
Incapacitated by and terrified of anyone being aware of my periods.
Forced to do 'women's work' at home.
Oh yeah and picking which spice girl I'd be.

I had a strong sense of my female self since before my teenage years

Did you mean to say 'a feminine side' to yourself? As a male, how could you have a 'female self'?

And yes, in our society there are some differences between how men and women present that are an expression of sex/gender.

But why do you need to declare that you are some sort of 'woman' in order to present in a way typical of women? Why not try to break down the gendered expectations of presentation? This is what women did through the 20th century. At the start of the century it was unacceptable for a woman to wear trousers. By the end of the century it was completely normal.

Women can dress from head to toe in clothes designed for men, have short hair and wear no make up, and people don't even notice - or if they do, they don't comment (I know, I've done it). By continuing with the argument that there are certain presentations which are only for women you perpetuate the idea that women should look a certain way. If I don't present in this way that you say is an expression of sex/gender appropriate for women, does that make me less of a woman? How does it benefit anyone to perpetuate harmful gender stereotypes?

You seem to be making the same argument as the children described by Katie Alcock (quoted by R0wantrees):
James is firm that having short hair makes him a boy, and that it also makes other people (and dolls) into boys. My own child aged four was convinced a teenager we knew must be a boy because she had short hair.

Until the age of about 7 (yes, 7 — in some children it’s older) children think that when something changes its appearance, its underlying reality changes too.

Just because there are 'rules' about what is acceptable and unacceptable attire for one of the sexes, it doesn't mean that your sex somehow changes if you break those rules. Yes, women do it more than men, but that is relatively recent - it's only in the last century or so that women have done this in great numbers. But why can't men start breaking the 'rules' too?

Nothing in your post has convinced me that your belief that you have some sort of 'female self' isn't entirely based on sexist 'gender roles'.

@OldCrone

I had a strong sense of my female self since before my teenage years

Did you mean to say 'a feminine side' to yourself? As a male, how could you have a 'female self'?

And yes, in our society there are some differences between how men and women present that are an expression of sex/gender.

But why do you need to declare that you are some sort of 'woman' in order to present in a way typical of women? Why not try to break down the gendered expectations of presentation? This is what women did through the 20th century. At the start of the century it was unacceptable for a woman to wear trousers. By the end of the century it was completely normal.

Women can dress from head to toe in clothes designed for men, have short hair and wear no make up, and people don't even notice - or if they do, they don't comment (I know, I've done it). By continuing with the argument that there are certain presentations which are only for women you perpetuate the idea that women should look a certain way. If I don't present in this way that you say is an expression of sex/gender appropriate for women, does that make me less of a woman? How does it benefit anyone to perpetuate harmful gender stereotypes?

You seem to be making the same argument as the children described by Katie Alcock (quoted by R0wantrees):
James is firm that having short hair makes him a boy, and that it also makes other people (and dolls) into boys. My own child aged four was convinced a teenager we knew must be a boy because she had short hair.

Until the age of about 7 (yes, 7 — in some children it’s older) children think that when something changes its appearance, its underlying reality changes too.

Just because there are 'rules' about what is acceptable and unacceptable attire for one of the sexes, it doesn't mean that your sex somehow changes if you break those rules. Yes, women do it more than men, but that is relatively recent - it's only in the last century or so that women have done this in great numbers. But why can't men start breaking the 'rules' too?

Nothing in your post has convinced me that your belief that you have some sort of 'female self' isn't entirely based on sexist 'gender roles'.

I havent set out to convince you of anything, nor do I seek your agreement or approval. That's my life experience.

I havent set out to convince you of anything
Odd way to approach a discussion forum

I havent set out to convince you of anything, nor do I seek your agreement or approval. That's my life experience.

And that's fine. But your interpretation of your experiences rests on a belief I don't subscribe to.

In the same way someone could claim their personal communication with God/Jehovah/Allah as their life experience and it would be also fine for them to do so. But other people don't have to accept that interpretation of something, which can have more mundane explanations, when they are atheists. And it would be unreasonable to oblige them to.

I have considerable doubts about Debbie Hayton's trans identification. Debbie has now written extensively about how tranistion was a mistake and (by implication) how unhappy she is with the state she finds herself in.

Hmm. What happened to acceptance without exception?

And if a highly educated mature adult can make a lifelong commitment and not get it right that suggests we should be extremely cautious about young people going down a similar path. Especially where puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery are concerned.

I havent set out to convince you of anything, nor do I seek your agreement or approval. That's my life experience.

Is there anything distinctive about this life experience that has conferred an adamantine shield against the socially imposed restrictions on women being coerced into seeking approval in order to exist within peer groups and many work/social settings?

@OldCrone

I had a strong sense of my female self since before my teenage years

Did you mean to say 'a feminine side' to yourself? As a male, how could you have a 'female self'?

And yes, in our society there are some differences between how men and women present that are an expression of sex/gender.

But why do you need to declare that you are some sort of 'woman' in order to present in a way typical of women? Why not try to break down the gendered expectations of presentation? This is what women did through the 20th century. At the start of the century it was unacceptable for a woman to wear trousers. By the end of the century it was completely normal.

Women can dress from head to toe in clothes designed for men, have short hair and wear no make up, and people don't even notice - or if they do, they don't comment (I know, I've done it). By continuing with the argument that there are certain presentations which are only for women you perpetuate the idea that women should look a certain way. If I don't present in this way that you say is an expression of sex/gender appropriate for women, does that make me less of a woman? How does it benefit anyone to perpetuate harmful gender stereotypes?

You seem to be making the same argument as the children described by Katie Alcock (quoted by R0wantrees):
James is firm that having short hair makes him a boy, and that it also makes other people (and dolls) into boys. My own child aged four was convinced a teenager we knew must be a boy because she had short hair.

Until the age of about 7 (yes, 7 — in some children it’s older) children think that when something changes its appearance, its underlying reality changes too.

Just because there are 'rules' about what is acceptable and unacceptable attire for one of the sexes, it doesn't mean that your sex somehow changes if you break those rules. Yes, women do it more than men, but that is relatively recent - it's only in the last century or so that women have done this in great numbers. But why can't men start breaking the 'rules' too?

Nothing in your post has convinced me that your belief that you have some sort of 'female self' isn't entirely based on sexist 'gender roles'.

No one can read posts like this, and not grasp the sexism underpinning the issue.

It's a very simple concept, after all.

Almost all the relative organisations, including trans advocacy groups, describe gender as culturally imposed stereotypes.

It's one thing to know, for sure, that that's what you are promoting, it's quite another to go out of your way to disagree with women who object to it though.

I have far more sympathy for people who want to transition when they are entirely upfront about how gender stereotyping made them miserable. Rather than actively maintaining them.

On another note, I was entirely unaware that Debbie Hayton has said they regret transitioning. Is that true?

I havent set out to convince you of anything, nor do I seek your agreement or approval. That's my life experience.

You were replying a post where I said:
Perhaps Debbie or Robin could tell us what they think makes a man into a woman which isn't either about a sexist 'gender role' or about a fetish.

You said it was a 'fair question'. But it seems that although fair, it's one that you are unable to answer.

Fine. There are always questions which any of us might find difficult or impossible to answer. The problem with a lack of an answer to what this 'female self' (in a man) actually is, is that laws are made around its existence, as though it really existed and could be defined, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Children are being given irreversible medication because they believe themselves to have an opposite sex 'gender identity'. But as you have confirmed, other than a sexual fetish or some nebulous feelings based on regressive and harmful gender stereotyping, no such thing actually exists.

nor do I seek your agreement or approval

We know, Robin. That is how the whole trans movement operates. Motoring on through our rights and requirements entirely without the agreement or approval of women.

How do we square the circle, then? You are very smart and up to date on the law - how do we balance my need for single sex spaces against your need for inclusion?

What a lovely flowing cape and cute mini skirt showing off sexy opaque silk tights and red heeled shoes. Gorgeous curly hair and lacy collar and cuffs.

Given free reign and tons of cash men dressed like this. It was prejudice against women that left us in impractical decorative clothes when men moved into more utilitarian wear. I don't think preferring to be dressed in "women's" clothes is feeling like a woman at all. Here's the King of France proving it.

Perhaps Debbie or Robin could tell us what they think makes a man into a woman which isn't either about a sexist 'gender role' or about a fetish.

According to a recent confirmation from the endocrine society, it's not possible.

Sex is an important biological variable that must be considered in the design and analysis of human and animal research. The terms sex and gender should not be used interchangeably. Sex is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes.

But sex is not the same thing as gender and using these terms as equivalents obfuscates differences that are real and important in society in general and biomedical research in particular.

Gender identity is a psychological concept that refers to an individual’s self-perception;

academic.oup.com/edrv/advance-article/doi/10.1210/endrev/bnaa034/6159361#.YG386Eqj1v4.twitter

Not sure if it's the same endocrine society who is going to be present at the Tavistock appeal?

I have to say though, this thread is certainly civil.

Not sure if it's the same endocrine society who is going to be present at the Tavistock appeal?

afaict, it is the one Endocrine Society (it's a huge international organisation). I should think that the PES (like a SIG within the Society (Pediatric Endocrine Society) are the one's who might be speaking at the appeal although I don't know if they'll testify as individual clinical experts or on behalf of PES but not necessarily ES.

King Louis - file didn't load, too big. Here's a link.

images.app.goo.gl/J6toxTzLMpkNrKLn8

[quote Scepticaltank]King Louis - file didn't load, too big. Here's a link.

images.app.goo.gl/J6toxTzLMpkNrKLn8[/quote]
I got really confused with King Louie from the Jungle Book then for a second.

@Datun

I have to say though, this thread is certainly civil.

Almost as if we're reasonable

@TinselAngel

There can't be a safety argument for a male teacher dressed en femme, to use the ladies toilets at a staff party, so what is the justification?

Its all rather difficult to square with the claims made in the 'The NASUWT Gender Equality Challenge' (extract) "The NASUWT is committed to the challenge of securing equal rights for women and girls at home and around the world and believes that governments, education bodies and other organisations have a key role to play.

The Union is fully committed to a set of Gender Equality Challenge Principles that supports and champions equality for women and girls.

Principles
(extract)
A commitment to advancing equality for women and girls in education, employment, and economic participation ensuring they can enjoy and exercise their full human and equal rights in society.

Urgent action worldwide to end violence against women and girls with funded support for preventative programmes that recognise and address social and cultural norms.

A commitment to promoting the positive and progressive contributions of women to society, economic and cultural life.

A commitment to ending the sexualisation and objectification of women and girls in education and society recognising the important role of men and boys."

www.nasuwt.org.uk/news/campaigns/the-nasuwt-gender-equality-challenge.html

@oldcrone "Perhaps Debbie or Robin could tell us what they think makes a man into a woman which isn't either about a sexist 'gender role' or about a fetish."

It's more fundamental than that: men can't become women. As I told Triggernometry, transwomen are [still] men.

The key questions for me are:

1. Should adults be able to modify their bodies in order to feel more comfortable with them?
2. Should we be restricted by sexist dress codes?

[quote DebbieInBirmingham]@oldcrone "Perhaps Debbie or Robin could tell us what they think makes a man into a woman which isn't either about a sexist 'gender role' or about a fetish."

It's more fundamental than that: men can't become women. As I told Triggernometry, transwomen are [still] men.

The key questions for me are:

1. Should adults be able to modify their bodies in order to feel more comfortable with them?
2. Should we be restricted by sexist dress codes?[/quote]

Variant on the question:

What makes a man into a transwoman? How is a man different to a transwoman and what constitutes the difference? Is it material? Emotional? Psychological? Spiritual? Social? Something else?

What are the necessary and sufficient conditions that differentiate a man from a transwoman?

Uncommonground Media article by Jennifer Bilek

Deconstructing the “Good Transwomen”
May 6, 2020
(extract)

"Transwomen who recognise the misogyny inherent in transgender and transsexual activism must still confront the objectification of women they participate in. (continues)

"... These “trans” identifying men who understand and state unequivocally that they are men, will often have a broad understanding of women who speak out against “transgenderism.” Several give voice to our concerns on media platforms often receiving the ire of other “trans” rights activists. Because these men understand why women don’t want males in our private spaces, give clear expression to the harms manifested on children by “gender mythology,” as well the destruction in society to language, the law and women’s rights, etc. they are commonly lauded by those fighting “gender mythology” as the “good kind of transwomen.” (continues)

There is no equivalent of females identifying as men, speaking about the agency of men on public platforms, holding public space to discuss what men are. Everyone knows what men are. Only womanhood is up for debate, and usually by men. As “good” as these men are at dismantling the sexism inherent in transgender and transsexual identities, they always seem to miss the objectification that is an essential ingredient of sexism which they cling to, as most of the world, like it’s a life-raft. The cost of transgenderism is the continuation of sexism and the oppression of women the world over." (continues)
uncommongroundmedia.com/deconstructing-the-good-transwomen/

By not giving an inch on this thread I think we are giving Debbie and Robin an authentic female experience 😂

We know you are sexually excited at the thought of being a women and have helped change policies to make others treat you as if you are a woman.

It's a bit late to claim it's just a bit of cosmetic surgery and clothes.

1. Should adults be able to modify their bodies in order to feel more comfortable with them?

I am assuming that "feel more comfortable with" is euphemistic at best here given the context?

euphemism
noun
a mild or indirect word or expression substituted for one considered to be too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing.

[quote DebbieInBirmingham]@oldcrone "Perhaps Debbie or Robin could tell us what they think makes a man into a woman which isn't either about a sexist 'gender role' or about a fetish."

It's more fundamental than that: men can't become women. As I told Triggernometry, transwomen are [still] men.

The key questions for me are:

1. Should adults be able to modify their bodies in order to feel more comfortable with them?
2. Should we be restricted by sexist dress codes?[/quote]

I'll rephrase my question.

What makes a man want to be a woman which isn't either about sexist 'gender roles' or about a fetish?