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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

17 year old daughter has asked for full sex change.

109 replies

LipstickLou · 31/03/2021 06:55

DD has had lots of issues at school after an attack aged 13. Last week she tried to hurt herself claiming if I didn't support full gender reassignment she would kill herself. She has worn male clothes for 3 years and called herself by various different boy names among her friends. We now have CAMHS involvement. Last year she told me she was a girl and liked boys. I now find her boyfriend is bi sexual with a preference for boys. Her close friends are all LGBTQ. I feel she is being pressurised by these people to have operations that are irreversible. She is the youngest of the group and no longer goes to college. She has followed various YouTubers including 'Miles'. These friends are constantly in the background talking to her at 2am in the morning. I am sick with worry that she will raise the money and go abroad behind my back. I am also heartbroken. She was the queen of pink. She hit puberty at 11 and is quite top heavy which she hates. I am at my wits end. And before I am trolled my best friend is gay and I have employed a number of transgender people. Has anyone received any help for a teen such as mine DD? I really don't think she is thinking about the consequences and her father agrees.

OP posts:
LostInTime · 31/03/2021 16:51

Is she Y13? Is there a chance to go on some kind of healing retreat away from any computing/phone access, preferably after some serious counselling for the assault?
She sounds in such pain.
I wish you and your family all the best Thanks

Gothichouse40 · 31/03/2021 17:00

Im sorry your child is in such distress. I really think this situation needs some sort of counselling. For me personally I feel between the ages of about 11 to 18 you change so much as a person all the time. I don't think young people should be making life-changing decisions re surgery till they are legally an adult at 18. There really is far too much peer pressure in the teen years. I definitely would seek out counselling for my child at this stage. You could perhaps sit them down, talk and tell them you are hearing them but would they agree to perhaps holding off on any surgery decision for at least 1 year and getting counselling beforehand? Then you could revisit it? I hope you find a solution, you are obviously a really caring parent.

LipstickLou · 31/03/2021 20:50

@MondayYogurt

There is so much to unpack here, where to even start.

Your child has been assaulted and doesn't trust anyone in her family enough to open up to about it. Why is that?
(Her brother disbelieving her and her aunt calling her names will be part of it, but who else has played a role?)

Taking her on holiday to a part of the world where men routinely sexually harass women will not help. Animals, wilderness, somewhere with no harassment - that sounds a lot likelier to help. I also don't know why you mention how pretty she still is, is that important to you? Are you upset that she might 'ruin her looks'? I hope she doesn't think that's all she has to offer the world.

She sounds so desperate. I think going mute, threatening suicide, planning on cutting off her breasts (that you admit are large and cause her distress - why not suggest ways for her to minimise how they look?) these are all desperate ways of communicating the huge psychological pain she is in.

When PP suggest cutting down internet time, you counter with she's a hacker. Do you see how not making the attempt could be interpreted by her as you simply not caring? Being passive isn't showing her you care.

Who put her brother on a pedestal? Who made her think she was so worthless as a girl that she would be better off dead or cut into the shape of a man? OP you need to root out the causes here and they are surrounding her as much as inside her.

Your poor girl, I can really empathise with how she is struggling. I really hope you can get through to her how important and loved she is, just as she is.

She is very loved.
OP posts:
LipstickLou · 31/03/2021 20:58

Thank you all for the advice. I have reached out to some charities. Good point about Italy too. She definitely wouldn't like the attention. I mention her attractiveness as she is always saying she is ugly. Today she said she hated her stomach and legs. I have always told her she was gorgeous as my mother omitted to tell me. I will try my hardest to support her because I Iove her but I don't want her to regret such a huge decision.

OP posts:
PaterPower · 31/03/2021 20:59

I know surgery might be a pathway you don’t want to start down, but

hamstersarse · 31/03/2021 21:01

I would really recommend listening to this:

Lisa Marciano is a Jungian Analyst and really gets into the depths of this issue

PaterPower · 31/03/2021 21:06

Sorry, hit post too soon.

I was going to add... but have you considered whether a reduction (not mastectomy) would help her? At least in terms of easing her self consciousness about her bra size. Maybe it gets her a bit closer to “boyhood” in her mind, perhaps enough that she doesn’t need to go further.

Disclaimer: I’m not a MHP, and probably completely naive as to the psychology around this. It must be hugely worrying for you.

hercatsanddogs · 31/03/2021 21:53

I would just like to say sending her to a wilderness camp is not the right answer. If you do minimal research you can see that children have died in places like that,and many who go become victims of emotional,sexual and physical abuseSad

hamstersarse · 31/03/2021 21:53

I heard a really interesting point about girls and transitioning the other day....related to porn

Imagine you are female, coming into the prime of your sexuality and you see what is expected of you from porn? It is obvious how that could be overwhelming, something that you can’t bear, don’t want to be part of....and a solution is to reject the female body.

I really really think transition is not the answer. You are not being an arsehole for saying that, you are not not being supportive...it’s actually the opposite...you need to break down why the female body is being rejected

LipstickLou · 01/04/2021 06:02

@PaterPower

Sorry, hit post too soon.

I was going to add... but have you considered whether a reduction (not mastectomy) would help her? At least in terms of easing her self consciousness about her bra size. Maybe it gets her a bit closer to “boyhood” in her mind, perhaps enough that she doesn’t need to go further.

Disclaimer: I’m not a MHP, and probably completely naive as to the psychology around this. It must be hugely worrying for you.

Yes. I have offered this and tbh I wish I had had it done in my twenties.
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ShastaBeast · 01/04/2021 06:04

I have an ASD daughter who is only 11 but there’s a few similarities and I’m worried about this issue in her future. It’s definitely worth looking at the possibility of ASD or similar (I’m told attachment disorder can appear the same way and some personality disorders). ASD is so different in girls it’s often missed, even by the specialists. Obviously ignore me if you are certain I’m just picking up some patterns which link these issues (I’m possibly ASD too). My DD is also very pretty (but says she’s ugly) and I imagine ASD etc can make them more vulnerable (naive) to assault. I’m sending DD to a girls school and low risk of sexual harassment is a factor, I experienced a fair amount.

My emergency plan is to go live in the middle of nowhere for a while eg rent a cottage in North Wales, or travel to non tourist places to see the real world. Reconnect with nature and away from the internet, as suggested above, but also to get some perspective. Physical work could help too, appreciate their bodies. Would she be open to this? It’s a tough time with covid.

LipstickLou · 01/04/2021 06:11

@hamstersarse

I heard a really interesting point about girls and transitioning the other day....related to porn

Imagine you are female, coming into the prime of your sexuality and you see what is expected of you from porn? It is obvious how that could be overwhelming, something that you can’t bear, don’t want to be part of....and a solution is to reject the female body.

I really really think transition is not the answer. You are not being an arsehole for saying that, you are not not being supportive...it’s actually the opposite...you need to break down why the female body is being rejected

I don't think she will have watched much if any porn. She is fiercely old fashioned. I am worried for her. I agree with most of the feedback, there is a hidden story here and she won't tell me. With her ongoing mh problems I can't see any surgeon agreeing to operate on her. We will have a trip away later in the year but perhaps to Ireland. I do appreciate the feedback.
OP posts:
LipstickLou · 01/04/2021 06:17

@ShastaBeast

I have an ASD daughter who is only 11 but there’s a few similarities and I’m worried about this issue in her future. It’s definitely worth looking at the possibility of ASD or similar (I’m told attachment disorder can appear the same way and some personality disorders). ASD is so different in girls it’s often missed, even by the specialists. Obviously ignore me if you are certain I’m just picking up some patterns which link these issues (I’m possibly ASD too). My DD is also very pretty (but says she’s ugly) and I imagine ASD etc can make them more vulnerable (naive) to assault. I’m sending DD to a girls school and low risk of sexual harassment is a factor, I experienced a fair amount.

My emergency plan is to go live in the middle of nowhere for a while eg rent a cottage in North Wales, or travel to non tourist places to see the real world. Reconnect with nature and away from the internet, as suggested above, but also to get some perspective. Physical work could help too, appreciate their bodies. Would she be open to this? It’s a tough time with covid.

We have been down the ASD route due to non attence at school. I would wiling have her tested again. I imagine it will be done as part of her two year assessment. For us the girls school didn't work as she hadn't worked through the trauma of her previous school and what ever happened there. I agree that the risk of abuse is lower and those with ASD very open to preditory types.
OP posts:
EdgeOfACoin · 01/04/2021 06:47

OP, I'm afraid I don't have much advice for you. Perhaps try getting hold of a book called Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier if you haven't already read it - its focus is on teenage girls and why they are looking to transition.

What I will say is that I'm quite shocked by some posters on here who have ignored every single red flag the OP has raised about her daughter and are going on about the low detransition rate and throwing around terms such as 'deadnaming' and 'misgendering'. OP has stated that her daughter was previously attacked, probably sexually. She has no childhood history of wanting to be a boy. She has suffered from mutism. She has shied away from telling her doctor that she wants to be a man.

In what universe is this evidence of a gender identity that is 'consistent, persistent and insistent'? Who are these people who are so convinced that anyone who says they are the opposite sex must in fact be the opposite sex, despite all sorts of signs that something else is going on? I can never get past how some posters are so utterly blinded by this ideology.

Not one poster on the pro-affirmation side of the argument has said 'this behaviour doesn't seem quite right and not what you would expect to see from someone with genuine dysphoria who would benefit from transition. It sounds like your daughter needs to slow down'. No, it's all 'you should be using her preferred pronouns and relax because the detrans rate is low'.

It's really quite illuminating.

LipstickLou · 01/04/2021 07:15

@EdgeOfACoin

OP, I'm afraid I don't have much advice for you. Perhaps try getting hold of a book called Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier if you haven't already read it - its focus is on teenage girls and why they are looking to transition.

What I will say is that I'm quite shocked by some posters on here who have ignored every single red flag the OP has raised about her daughter and are going on about the low detransition rate and throwing around terms such as 'deadnaming' and 'misgendering'. OP has stated that her daughter was previously attacked, probably sexually. She has no childhood history of wanting to be a boy. She has suffered from mutism. She has shied away from telling her doctor that she wants to be a man.

In what universe is this evidence of a gender identity that is 'consistent, persistent and insistent'? Who are these people who are so convinced that anyone who says they are the opposite sex must in fact be the opposite sex, despite all sorts of signs that something else is going on? I can never get past how some posters are so utterly blinded by this ideology.

Not one poster on the pro-affirmation side of the argument has said 'this behaviour doesn't seem quite right and not what you would expect to see from someone with genuine dysphoria who would benefit from transition. It sounds like your daughter needs to slow down'. No, it's all 'you should be using her preferred pronouns and relax because the detrans rate is low'.

It's really quite illuminating.

Edgeofacoin you are a star. I did expect some mother bashers. I had to have a thread pulled the other weak as i was called such disgusting things. Late at night when the booze was in I expect!

I am heartbroken because I don't see this as her path. I can cope with different sexuality and who we love is our own individual business. i am so not bothered I didn't know by best friend was gay for 20 years!

Her self image is poor and she feels second best to her domineering brother who has moved out a few weeks ago .She has shunned counselling for the last two years but managed a couple of sessions recently. I call her by a nickname related to her male name when I remember and she is OK with it.
I think when she starts the psychiatric sessions she may see how hard this is. It is very costly too and I think most specialists will be on high alert in light of recent high court findings.
I do think her boyfriend has a lot of influence over her and my husband is not going to be shaking his hand anytime soon. I was very interested to read the links about the cult like influencers as this all started with the infamous Miles.I then didn't hear anything more for 2 years and she seemed happy. I posted on Mumsnet as my own circle are very transphobic.

OP posts:
MondayYogurt · 01/04/2021 07:39

I mention her attractiveness as she is always saying she is ugly. Today she said she hated her stomach and legs. I have always told her she was gorgeous as my mother omitted to tell me.

There could be a lot under the surface of this behaviour. Calling herself ugly could be a self protective measure, 'ugly girls don't get assaulted' or 'ugly is safe'. In which case you reassuring her she is beautiful would undermine her self defence. Fundamentally she appears to hate herself, so perhaps you can counter with positive messages of how useful it is to be able to walk with ease (this goes back to the suggestions of volunteering with disabled kids). Countering 'I'm ugly' with affirmations of self worth that don't centre on looks could help to move her internal narrative.

LipstickLou · 01/04/2021 09:30

I see the self protection in her thoughts. She is super clever but she hates that too. If I praise that she doesn't react well and that has absolutely nowt to do with her gender. She actually has a higher IQ than her brother (which in a rare show of pride she enjoyed knowing ). What I was looking for from this post was some links which I got. Thank you all.

OP posts:
WallaceinAnderland · 01/04/2021 09:54

her domineering brother who has moved out a few weeks ago

OP I hadn't realised that the sexual assault was so recent, sorry. I thought you were talking about last year or later. She must still be reeling from that.

With her brother saying she was lying about it, she has only had a few weeks without him around. It will take a hell of a lot longer for her to feel comfortable enough to talk about.

LipstickLou · 01/04/2021 10:24

@WallaceinAnderland

her domineering brother who has moved out a few weeks ago

OP I hadn't realised that the sexual assault was so recent, sorry. I thought you were talking about last year or later. She must still be reeling from that.

With her brother saying she was lying about it, she has only had a few weeks without him around. It will take a hell of a lot longer for her to feel comfortable enough to talk about.

Sorry I must have missed typed. Attack was 5years ago. Brother has moved out as we downsized.
OP posts:
WallaceinAnderland · 01/04/2021 11:33

So has she had to live with him the whole five years since the attack? With him saying she made it up and everyone saying how wonderful and amazing he was?

If so, that explains everything.

LipstickLou · 01/04/2021 14:20

@WallaceinAnderland

So has she had to live with him the whole five years since the attack? With him saying she made it up and everyone saying how wonderful and amazing he was?

If so, that explains everything.

He isn't as wonderful and amazing anymore. Four years ago his grandfather died. It changed him. Hence why we suggested he leave. They don't get on but I think it would take a psychologist to explain why this would make her want to be male. As before I was looking for links to supportive organisations. This I have achieved.
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MrsMidClegs · 01/04/2021 15:15

Hi @LipstickLou - I think you've signed off on this thread but I did come across a thread on Twitter the other day which contains a lot of really really good info on how 'changing sex' does not in fact alleviate pain or making anything better.

I am wondering if your DD in a moment of willing to think clearly about things might find some of this useful?

mobile.twitter.com/ladyduckpojok/status/1376815916906860545

WallaceinAnderland · 01/04/2021 15:31

it would take a psychologist to explain why this would make her want to be male

Your dd suffered a sexual assault 5 years ago. Her brother accused her of lying. Everyone around her adored her brother. He was the apple of their eye. You have said yourself, he was the golden boy. She was compared to him and came up short.

For five years she had to live like this. Sharing her home, her private space, her safe space with someone like that.

Really? You really think you need a psychologist to tell you this is where it is coming from?

TaraR2020 · 01/04/2021 16:55

I'm not sure that complimenting their looks is the best way to reassure them. I know its well intentioned but it reaffirms the importance of physicality. For reasons you've mentioned, this a complicated and very emotional area so any compliment is likely to raise difficult and painful feelings. I would focus instead on traits that are less complicated for them - intelligence, inner strength, resilience, creativity, helpfulness to others... Build up their sense of value not based in perceived gender parameters.

I would also take a step back with regards to counselling. I wouldn't be surprised if the more its "pushed" the more your child resists. Have the offer and suggestions there but when they ask for it. It might give them more space to work out what will help them and to maintain their autonomy while they do so.

The trip to Italy sounds wonderful and while I agree you should both consider male attention id let it be your dd/ds choice to go or not. Firstly, they take control that way, which they clearly need and secondly it gives them something to look forward because if not Italy then see where else they'd like to go.

(I've been to Italy alone a few times btw and never been catcalled or treated with anything but respect by Italian men there.)

Regardless of whether they are or are not, truly trans, I wonder if they'd benefit from more strong female role models in their life? While you are clearly one yourself, as mum you're emotionally invested in a way no one else is and other female relatives are disparaging. Add to that a brother with a strong character and your child's attack..regardless of their true gender it happened while in a female body and so it's fair to say, as you have, that their feelings about womanhood have been compromised.

Honestly, I'd be seen to step back with regards to their gender identity. That isn't to say your worries are not valid and shouldn't be explored - they are and they should. But if your child feels safest and happiest identifying as a boy, then being seen to debate their identity or choice is only going to make them feel unsafe.

If it turns out they later change their mind about how the express their gender identity, then fine, and likewise if they don't. If they ask you tell them your concerns but if they don't then I would suggest something more along the lines of "look i have worries, because I'm your mum and its my job to consider all possibilities and id like to be assured that you're informed but I fully support you whatever you do or don't do in the future" and leave it at that.

If they're at all unsure about where they fall in terms of binary gender definitions or somewhere along a spectrum, im not sure that involving yourself in the debate will help them. I think they'll just feel less safe and more likely to lean on friends.

A lot can change in the next few years - your dd/ds is going to grow up, hopefully find their voice, probably make new friends and inheriting money at 21 is still a way away. I would trust that for someone as intelligent as them by that time they'll have done a lot of research and be more assured in what is right for them to do, whether that'd to pursue surgery or not. Focus on letting your dd/ds find their new place in the family dynamic now that brother has moved out.

I'd also look to see if they're interested in self defence classes, useful whoever you are but especially empowering if you've been threatened. Focus on helping them feel empowered in all areas of life.

There was an interesting AMA a while ago, written by a woman who's child is transitioning, it might be worth checking it out and maybe seeing if she's still around to chat to. I think they went through the full gamut of emotions too.

LipstickLou · 01/04/2021 17:13

Excellent advice Tara. Thank you.

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