I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

I was the youngest of many. I remember mum saying - ‘I’ve heard and seen it all...’ and being rather miffed. I did like my crew cut and green lippy though.

Lets admit it, your son has a normal male to female sex life, so his partner can call herself any name she likes and he will support it, because it's just words that he is paying lip service to .
The Emperor's New Clothes.
I am sure any 5 year old would tell him he is seeing a girl.

I have a transman niece and generally avoid pronouns. Her parents, who are massively supportive of her transition, still use 'she' from time to time, despite self-monitoring.

Crystal90567 I'm in a working class area and I think you're spot on with opting out of a particular view of beauty meshing with more pronouced sterotypes and perhaps w.c parents being less aware of the pitfalls or busy with other concerns.

I do watch DD1 visibly/audibly pause before using new names and pronouns about her friends - with occaional slip up quickly self corrected - it must be exhausting and looks like hard work.

I would start by asking why, since both parents have the same position, only you came in for excoriation. Don't go on the back foot, explore why there is this discrepancy, with your husband's active support.

@JensonsAcolyte

Chatting over dinner last night DS was talking about his GF a lot, and me and DH silently counted all the times he called her ‘she’ instead of ‘they’. It was about half the time.

Even the most devout adherents can’t get it right all the time, it seems.

Because in truth, when it comes to his dating preferences he knows damn well what sex is and that it matters to him on a pretty fundamental level.

He sees his GF as female which is why he "slips" into those pronouns when he's not thought policing himself strongly enough.

@randomlyLostInWales

Crystal90567 I'm in a working class area and I think you're spot on with opting out of a particular view of beauty meshing with more pronouced sterotypes and perhaps w.c parents being less aware of the pitfalls or busy with other concerns.

I do watch DD1 visibly/audibly pause before using new names and pronouns about her friends - with occaional slip up quickly self corrected - it must be exhausting and looks like hard work.

She pauses to make sure she gets it right as she is respectful.

She pauses to make sure she gets it right as she is respectful.

Is it respectful to expect everyone around you to constantly mentally "self correct" what they know to be true?

Is that not coercion/control at play rather than respect (especially when faced with the potential"wrath" if god forbid your subconscious chooses a persons pronouns rather than your fear of offending)?

@DeRigueurMortis

She pauses to make sure she gets it right as she is respectful.

Is it respectful to expect everyone around you to constantly mentally "self correct" what they know to be true?

Is that not coercion/control at play rather than respect (especially when faced with the potential"wrath" if god forbid your subconscious chooses a persons pronouns rather than your fear of offending)?

No.

Why not?

Why is it appropriate to demand others to modify reality in order to shape the world to a persons desires?

There's no other example where this is an expectation - except apparently when it comes to identify politics.

No.

It seems like it to me.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No.

It seems like it to me.

Maybe hanged by out our petard where "No" is a complete sentence .

As an autistic person this new play acting (much like the masking we typically do) is exhausting. I don't want to have to expend so much mental effort and cause myself anxiety. The mentally ill, neurodivergent and especially the learning disabled are never considered in this farce of rapidly changing rules and terminology.

Ooof OP, it's painful isn't it? Dd is in year 12 and we have conversations about this too. I thought I had done a good job raising a fierce little feminsist but her biggest ambition is to be a WAG. fuck sake. Nearly 17 years of telling her she can be what she wants, do what she wants, achieve what she wants and her biggest ambition, despite GCSEs being all 9s and 8s is to marry a footballer.

Still, she doesn't subscribe to all the hype re trans rights. Her mate does though. Dd practices her arguements on me 'Beth says twaw, what do you think?' And her favourite 'Beth says JKR is a bigot'. Sigh.

@DeRigueurMortis

Why not?

Why is it appropriate to demand others to modify reality in order to shape the world to a persons desires?

There's no other example where this is an expectation - except apparently when it comes to identify politics.

Really?

Have a look at the threads where people are apoplectic about people not using their right names or spelling them right or calling them Mrs rather than miss or vice versa, and the cheerleading these posts get.

The difference?

My name is reality

The spelling of my name is reality

My marital status is reality

The whole pronoun game always makes me think of that test/game where you have a list of colour names, all in different (wrong) colours, and you have to say the colour not the word.

It’s really hard to do.

The Stroop Effect.

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

My name is reality

The spelling of my name is reality

My marital status is reality

And you decide someone else's reality, do you?

Yes this is why I’m happy to use any name change but pronouns is a different matter. He and she are there to indicate male and female. If you say I have to use for example “she” when you’re not female, that’s not reality and it’s interfering with the relationship with reality and language in my brain, which is none of your business.

On a more practical level, it does mean people will slip up, Loren, autistic people, people with learning difficulties may also find it very confusing and hard to do. And I think that whole difficulty is part of the way genderism believers make themselves feel special and victimised, and as if they have to fight a battle for acceptance. But why should people accept having to lose the meaningful use of pronouns?

Names are different because you can choose your name, plenty of names are not gendered at all, and it doesn’t challenge the fact that I know what sex you are. I had an extremely masculine male friend throughout university who had a “girl’s” name.

I know there’s just using a’ they” for everyone which is creeping in in many context. I hate it. I’m a she just as I’m a woman.

@JensonsAcolyte

The whole pronoun game always makes me think of that test/game where you have a list of colour names, all in different (wrong) colours, and you have to say the colour not the word.

It’s really hard to do.

Not comparable at all.

Hello I'm James . I identify as he.

Hello James

Use he in all further interactions.

It never fails to astound me that very bright, astute women who are clearly intelligent enough to debate this issue set feminism back a million years by pretending they are oh just so silly and simple minded they can't manage to use a pronoun that looks different from whats in front of them, as it's just far too difficult for them.

The faux misunderstanding is fooling nobody.

Loren? That was children

@WindyPudding

Yes this is why I’m happy to use any name change but pronouns is a different matter. He and she are there to indicate male and female. If you say I have to use for example “she” when you’re not female, that’s not reality and it’s interfering with the relationship with reality and language in my brain, which is none of your business.

On a more practical level, it does mean people will slip up, Loren, autistic people, people with learning difficulties may also find it very confusing and hard to do. And I think that whole difficulty is part of the way genderism believers make themselves feel special and victimised, and as if they have to fight a battle for acceptance. But why should people accept having to lose the meaningful use of pronouns?

Names are different because you can choose your name, plenty of names are not gendered at all, and it doesn’t challenge the fact that I know what sex you are. I had an extremely masculine male friend throughout university who had a “girl’s” name.

I know there’s just using a’ they” for everyone which is creeping in in many context. I hate it. I’m a she just as I’m a woman.

The they is not for everyone.

The fact you think their chosen pronoun comes second to your own brain and Is none of their business is baffling.