I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

Irreversible damage speaks about why its mostly the middle class kids getting caught up in this nonscence, and how teenagers need something to rebel against which is difficult when you have liberal parents/ adults surrounding you, makes a lot of sense and hopefully the upcoming gen z will rebel against the current older gen z / millennials

I don't understand how this is a rebellion

It seems more like role play.

@AbsintheFriends - that Twitter post you included is spot on.

This shall pass.

Very young teen Tik Tok is awash with satire mocking 'misgendering' outrage.

Teen Dd says it’s all about the algorithms on social media generated so they end up in an echo chamber and that lots of mods are controlling the narrative. Like in Reddit but on a teen level I suppose. Also Drag Race is the most popular programme for year8 upwards which sends odd signals about men and women. Boys are calling girls ‘bitches’ etc and commenting on girls’ make up and body hair more. Because being interested in drag race then sends you to all sorts of related topics in social media. Lots about transforming yourself to alleviate the inner pain.

Jesus yuur kids sound insufferable. Sorry. But I don't mean that in a blameful way I think this seems to be common. I'm not gc and would probably say I think tw are tw. I don't believe people can change biological sex nor do I think not wanting sex with somone with genitals outside of your sexual preference is transphobic. Just giving that info so yiu know I'm not coming from exactly the same place as many women here.

Honesty though I don't know what you can do. I'd avoid the subject and ask for your dc to be more respectful. Just like yiure being with his gf.

I think it’s normal to argue with your teens about ideologies and worldviews, and in fact helps them develop what they think and develop their separate identity (identity in the old sense, their sense of their own self and opinions).

The problem is that this particular movement/ideology is so harmful in various ways, harms us as women and could horribly harm our teens, so we are much more emotional about it, which is understandable.

I’m grateful my DC (one teen one tween) are able to discuss it with me, so far but I know that could change and anything could happen. Their views are not aligned with mine, their peers are pushing the trans religion at them all the time and with my tween (who is more sociable) you can clearly see the trendiness and coolness aspect of it. But they do know how I feel and understand it’s my point of view and I have my reasons. In fact we laugh about how much I rant on about it and they’ll say “OMG don’t set her off” and it’s quite friendly as yet.

Their dad (separated thank fuck) is full on wokebro TWAW and airs his views too. It’s hard to be on the (currently) “losing” side of the argument, in terms of school, university and public policies, but I think it’s really important that they have me and know what I think, so there is someone to talk to if and when they need to, if they find themselves questioning the orthodoxy. I don’t mind if they disagree with me, but I want them to know there’s someone they can talk to about it. That goes for you too op - it’s really hard and upsetting, but they know if they need to row back from this, you’ll be there.

I suggested to my D ages ago why can't people be defined by their sex and anything they choose to do sexually, emotionally , appearance wise etc doesn't need a label. They just get on with their lives. This stumped her for a bit .

Our parents probably felt like this about the normalising of homosexuality.

No. This is entirely different. And this is how things have gotten so far - people assuming that trans rights are analogous to gay rights in some way. They're not.

@Diaryofamadwoman

This shall pass.

Very young teen Tik Tok is awash with satire mocking 'misgendering' outrage.

Also tiktok has some great stuff on it too! It's not just this shit!

It sounds like you both have extreme views.

Nope - OP doesn’t sound like she has extreme views at all. Still interested for people to correct me and tell me exactly how I can change sex and father children.

I am hoping that this is a generational thing and I won’t need these discussions - my DC are younger - not exposed to woke crap - and fully know my views.

OP.

I am of an age where I now get where much (not all) of where my parents were coming from. I expect your children will one day do the same.

I was talking about it with DH this morning again.

It’s a weird religious fervour that nobody really believes. But everybody is too scared of backlash to disagree. It is exactly like enforced religion. We are heretics for openly challenging it, but almost no one actually believes it’s true. Like most Christians don’t actually literally believe the wafers and wine are the body and blood of Christ.

No one actually believes human beings can change sex but we’re not allowed to say it out loud.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Except even protestant/CofE believe that transubstantiation is, symbolic and not literal!

In an age where people supposedly have more freedoms than ever, the word feels more controlled and constricted than ever because of a vocal minority.

Also Drag Race is the most popular programme for year8 upwards which sends odd signals about men and women.

Slight aside - it really pisses me off how Drag Race is the pinned programme on my BBC iPlayer homepage. Of all the shit...

OP’s view is not extreme. Why is the rational obvious and scientific reality an “extreme view”?

It’s like saying atheism is an extreme view. No it’s not, it’s just basing what you think on reality and the available evidence.

Coming at this from a totally different angle - I hope it helps somehow, OP:

I'm the adult (late 30s) daughter of a father with a few truly despicable views (not particularly controversial in this case; dad's basically a fascist at this point).

Obviously, I disagree with him. Worse than that, I despise his views. I think they're all the things that your teen shouts at you: dangerous, bigoted, and anti-semitic (that'll be my replacement for "transphobic").

What's worse: you can't hold a conversation with dad about anything else. "Nice weather today, eh?" will inevitably set him off on a tangent about Chemtrails and how "They" (and, yes, he does mean Jews) use them to manipulate the clouds and our brains and every other thing ... it's horrifying!

Here's the thing: I love my dad! I don't speak to him but "I love you, dad, and please ring me if we can ever talk about anything else again - I miss who you used to be!" was actually the last thing I've said to him.

I DO love and miss him. He's not a good person (but used to be an emotionally present and much beloved father). But I'd still want to speak to him and have a relationship if we could just so much as call a truce and agree not to speak about the fascist stuff!

For the record, I'm by no means claiming that being GC and being an actual fascist are im any way comparable - I'm merely speaking to "how it feels as an adult when you have a parent whose views are untenable in your eyes".

What I wanted you to know, OP: I couldn't have taken this stance as a teen (didn't need to; dad's trip down insanity lane came later). But given the shouting matches I had with my then socialist parents over "Marxism-Leninism" (them) vs. "Anarcho-Syndicalism" (me at 17), I can't see how I would have been remotely emotionally capable of dealing with a parent with an actually drastically different take on stuff.

What I wanted you to know was: even if your kids never change their views on gender politics/wokeness: you absolutely DO have a functioning relationship to look forward to so long as you manage not to make every single conversation about your disagreements.

PS: my 20s were basically one long lesson in "OMG, mum had a point ..."

When I hear of people saying that they feel "unsafe" I do an eye roll. It makes them sound some fragile flower that needs protection. But of course the reality is that it is used to silence anyone that challenges their opinion. It is a tactic that is used to make them appear to be a victim instead of the manipulative narcissist they really are.

I don't think I could ever have the girlfriend back in my house after that. I have worked hard to pay my mortgage and provide a safe home for my family. There is no way I would tolerate that BS in my own home and your son owes you an apology for believing it.
I would have a word with your DD about what exactly she means by being "less female" some days. I think it would be good to get her to analyse the concept of feeling female. How exactly does she feel on her female days. How does she know that her "less female" days are not valid female feelings. What exactly are male feelings and how does she know that they are male feelings. Get her talking and keep the conversation going.
It is all very well saying that they will grow out of it, but laws are being changed now to enforce this ideology and it will be very difficult to row back from it.

God you poor woman.This too shall pass- hold onto that and a few years down the line your children will look at back and cringe ( I had a v militant dd who knew everything- she’s 32 this year and she apologised 😂)

Our parents probably felt like this about the normalising of homosexuality.

No - it's true that homosexuality and sex outside marriage have been normalised, but fundamentally we accept them because there is no convincing argument for why they are wrong.

However, if you really are the first person who can explain how it is possible to change sex/avoid the consequences of sex, and why people should be categorised according to gender, please go ahead.

@AbsintheFriends I’ve been looking for that Twitter thread for years, thank you so much!

I have an unborn son, I am going to celebrate his masculinity and teach him the norms and values associated with it

With no disrespect intended, I think you are approaching this from a different angle to the OP and most of the feminists in FWR, and that since our beliefs are often conflated with this it's worth restating what they are.

We generally agree that gender is most meaningfully defined as feminity, masculinity, and the "norms and values" associated with these but we generally disagree that these are related in any meaningful way to being biologically male or female. Women are adult human females and feminity has nothing to do with it. Men are adult human males and masculinity has nothing to do with it. If you want to raise your son to celebrate and adhere to the norms and values of masculinity then that's your right, the majority of parents are doing the same, but it isn't the position feminists are arguing for. We are trying to uncouple gender (which is socially constructed, often harmful, and fluid between cultures, time periods, and even life stages) from sex (which is a material reality that cannot be changed and has a measurable impact on a person's life from cradle to grave).

@merrymouse

Our parents probably felt like this about the normalising of homosexuality.

No - it's true that homosexuality and sex outside marriage have been normalised, but fundamentally we accept them because there is no convincing argument for why they are wrong.

However, if you really are the first person who can explain how it is possible to change sex/avoid the consequences of sex, and why people should be categorised according to gender, please go ahead.

I don’t think so either. My parents were genuinely cool about my sister, and a good friend of theirs was gay. Of course my uncle was caveman about his son but they got on with it. These were people born in the 1920s and 30s. No one was trying to reinvent the wheel there.

I've had similar discussions with my teens. Don't apologize, you didn't do anything wrong. People should only say they are sorry for things they truly regret and a bit of blunt speaking in the face of provocation isn't something to feel sorry about imo. The truth is your teens (like mine) are privileged. Which is why they can enjoy the luxury of behaving like little shits - they aren't old enough or experienced enough to 'get' where women are coming from on this issue. Actual discrimination and danger isn't something that's real for them yet because they've led cushioned and protected lives, so they can't comprehend why you feel as you do.

You should be expecting an apology from your son, for being so bloody rude to his mother! I've got no tolerance for the whole bollocks about his gf feeling unsafe - that's manipulative bullshit. Tell him if she feels like that, she can stay in her own house!

I see what people below are saying but what I am trying to say is that this argument between OP and her teens is really about something else. The gender issue is just the conduit through which it's being expressed.

My husbands fathers felt like this with the hitler youth

Youth is not always correct , clear thinking or progressive

OP, my sympathies. It sounds like a very challenging situation.