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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jolene, and other anti-feminist anthems

817 replies

StealthPolarBear · 20/03/2021 20:14

Just to say this is a light-hearted chat thread.
I love jolene, sing it with a minor adaptation every time I'm cleaning the windows. I have no idea about the background, but it must come near the top of the least feminist songs ever!
Another which I've just heard is sheryl crow, strong enough. "lie to me, I promise I'll believe, lie to me, but please don't leave"
Brilliant song, awful lyrics :)
Any others?

OP posts:
StrangeLookingParasite · 21/03/2021 22:15

@ErrolTheDragon

My dawg comment was meant to be mildly taking the piss out of the one I responded to but evidently failed massively.
I got the joke, it reminded me of the other one about how if you play country songs backwards you get your wife back, your house back, your horse back... etc.

I too loathe sexual healing, it's always given me the creeps.

I will always love you is also the source of one of my more favourite jokes: what is Whitney Houston's favourite for of co-ordination?
(h)and Iiiiiii-ye-iiiiii

In terms of older country music, I used to sing Patsy Cline when cleaning the house. Songs like the doormat song (actual name I don't wanna)

Don't wanta walk unless I'm walkin' with you
Don't wanta talk unless I'm talkin' to you
Don't wanta be lonesome, don't wanta be blue
Baby, that's how much I love you
Don't wanta cry unless I'm cryin' for you
Don't wanta sigh unless I'm sighin' for you
Don't wanta be found with somebody new
Baby, that's how much I love you
I built my whole world around you
Darlin', don't ever break my heart
I'm so glad that I found you
And in my life, you'll always play a part

MistyGreenAndBlue · 22/03/2021 11:12

Shout out for "You can Keep Your Hat On"
I mean REALLY?

KisstheTeapot14 · 22/03/2021 11:26

Thank Heaven for Little Girls.

Yuck.

KisstheTeapot14 · 22/03/2021 11:51

Looks like Jolene has prevented at least one RL affair, one poster upthread said she heard it during a time she was being pursued by a married man and it made up her mind to stop it before it started.

It takes 2 to tango so maybe Jolene is a feminist song in a way.

I've always felt its very unfeminist to have a relationship with someone you know is already 'engaged' as it were. Horrible thing to do to another woman (yes, yes, I know the man is not blameless before people pile on).

I like the Dolly Vaccine song, and now off to look for the metal version of Jolene as destroying entity that must be appeased.

Bit like Bill Bailey singing 'Twinkle Twinkle' in death metal mode I expect.

(Limboland - on iplayer, brilliant musical fun as he always is).

KisstheTeapot14 · 22/03/2021 11:54

@MistyGreenAndBlue this line makes me giggle as I always imagine comedy hats, like sou'wester rain hat, woolly bobble hat, lady in the tutti fruity hat etc

or

Mr Bloom (even though he's a pretend Northerner). I wouldn't mind if he kept his hat on.

Just saying.

SirSamuelVimes · 22/03/2021 12:09

@KisstheTeapot14 you'll have to fight me for Mr Bloom!

Defaultname · 22/03/2021 12:59

Wasn't Born a Man by Dana Gillespie.
I mean, how could a true feminist even know if she was born a man/woman/whatever?
(Only kidding).

JustGotHere · 22/03/2021 15:09

“They Don’t Know”, which is about codependency, is my guilty pleasure.. I love to sing along and always hesitate at some of the words that really ring true, and think of how much my therapist would disapprove.

I’m American, so I probably only knew the Tracy Ullman version, back in the day,. But I love the original too; I probably only know about Kirsty MacColl from lurking a thread here of people freaking out about Fairytale of New York, and that’s been my favorite version ever since, her voice is just so sweet I can hardly stand it.

Blibbyblobby · 22/03/2021 15:31

An achingly beautiful song in the "I know he's a terrible person who'll fuck up my life but I've got no choice because I love him" genre: "Misguided Angel" by the Cowboy Junkies

Defaultname · 22/03/2021 15:53

Can you cook and sew, make flowers grow
Do you understand my pain?
Are you willing to risk it all
Or is your love in vain?

(Bob Dylan.)

Good question!

I suppose that Just Like a Woman has had a mention?

But I'm not so sure that To Ramona, which was referenced upthread, is irredeemable, not least because it ends with:

Everything passes
Everything changes
Just do what you think you should do
And someday maybe
Who knows, baby
I'll come and be cryin' to you.

JustGotHere · 22/03/2021 16:00

I love Bob Dylan, And totally agree about Just Like a Woman, but mostly on, “she breaks like a little girl”. And then there’s “Tangled Up in Blue”,

When she bent down to tie the laces of my shoe

What the hell does that mean, who does that? This song is one of those things that men adore, but I think is just ok, like “Eternal Sunshine of the Spiotless Mind”.

But there is a lot going on to feel weird about, why would she tie his shoelaces?

The story as I read it is, he’s a homewrecker.. He failed to rescue her (madonna) completely, so she reverted to her natural whorish state, and became a stripper. Is that why men love it? madonna/whore stuff?

Whats the slave stuff mean? It’s Dylan, he’s a Nobel Laureate,there’s probably a dozen dissertations on what it means,

^Early one morning, the sun was shining
I was laying in bed
Wondering if she'd changed it all
If her hair was still red
Her folks, they said our lives together
Sure was gonna be rough
They never did like mama's homemade dress
Papa's bankbook wasn't big enough
And I was standing on the side of the road
Rain falling on my shoes
Heading out for the east coast
Lord knows I've paid some dues getting through
Tangled up in blue
She was married when we first met
Soon to be divorced
I helped her out of a jam, I guess
But I used a little too much force
We drove that car as far as we could
Abandoned it out west
Split up on a dark, sad night
Both agreeing it was best
She turned around to look at me
As I was walking away
I heard her say over my shoulder
"We'll meet again someday on the avenue"
Tangled up in blue
I had a job in the great north woods
Working as a cook for a spell
But I never did like it all that much
And one day the axe just fell
So I drifted down to New Orleans
Where I's lucky for to be employed
Working for a while on a fishing boat
Right outside of Delacroix
But all the while I was alone
The past was close behind
I seen a lot of women
But she never escaped my mind and I just grew
Tangled up in blue
She was working in a topless place
And I stopped in for a beer
I just kept looking at the sight of her face
In the spotlight so clear
And later on when the crowd thinned out
I's just about to do the same
She was standing there in back of my chair
Said, "Tell me, don't I know your name?"
I muttered something underneath my breath
She studied the lines on my face
I must admit I felt a little uneasy
When she bent down to tie the laces of my shoe
Tangled up in blue
She lit a burner on the stove and offered me a pipe
"I thought you'd never say hello, " she said
"You look like the silent type"
Then she opened up a book of poems
And handed it to me
Written by an Italian poet
From the thirteenth century
And every one of them words rang true
And glowed like burning coal
Pouring off of every page
Like it was written in my soul from me to you
Tangled up in blue
I lived with them on Montagüe Street
In a basement down the stairs
There was music in the cafés at night
And revolution in the air
Then he started into dealing with slaves
And something inside of him died
She had to sell everything she owned
And froze up inside
And when finally the bottom fell out
I became withdrawn
The only thing I knew how to do
Was to keep on keeping on like a bird that flew
Tangled up in blue
So now I'm going back again
I got to get her somehow
All the people we used to know
They're an illusion to me now
Some are mathematicians
Some are carpenter's wives
Don't know how it all got started
I don't what they do with their lives
But me, I'm still on the road
Heading for another joint
We always did feel the same
We just saw it from a different point of view
Tangled up in blue^

BluebellsareBlue · 22/03/2021 16:02

@stealthpolarbear Harper Valley PTA. I love it!!

JustGotHere · 22/03/2021 16:12

Great thread., sorry for spamming it. One of my pet peeves and something I can’t stand is when men assume the character of a woman and sing as if in her literary voice. The quintessential example would be “Candy Says” by the Velvet Underground. I think there is a word for this process of putting words into women’s mouths , something like “exscription”.

Miaowse · 22/03/2021 16:35

@Scout2016 I was wondering if anyone would mention Sad Eyes. I absolutely adore it, but definitely pick up a lot of misogyny from the lyrics. It makes me think of an incel /pick up artist singing to a woman he’s attracted to but despises as he thinks she thinks she’s too good for him.

Every day here you come walking
I hold my tongue, I don't do much talking
You say you're happy and you're doin' fine
Well go ahead, baby, I got plenty of time
Sad eyes never lie
Sad eyes never lie

Well for a while I've been watching you steady
Ain't gonna move 'til you're good and ready
You show up and then you shy away
But I know pretty soon you'll be walkin' this way
Sad eyes never lie
Sad eyes never lie

Baby don't you know I don't care
Don't you know that I've been there
Well if something in the air feels a little unkind
Don't worry darling, it'll slip your mind

I know you think you'd never be mine
Well that's okay, baby, I don't mind
That shy smile's sweet, that's a fact
Go ahead, I don't mind the act
Here you come all dressed up for a date
Well one more step and it'll be too late
Blue blue ribbon in your hair
Like you're so sure I'll be standing here

Link again - the Sad Eyes chorus gives me shivers, just love the melody and his voice:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=fSOV_bgkfxk&feature=youtu.be

LunaNorth · 22/03/2021 16:36

I find Sad Eyes sexy as fuck too.

I’m clearly Bruce-Blind.

Blush
LunaNorth · 22/03/2021 16:38

I don’t find it misogynistic.

He’s world weary, can see she is too, he’s biding his time because he knows she wants him as much as he wants her.

MissBarbary · 22/03/2021 16:40

@JustGotHere

Great thread., sorry for spamming it. One of my pet peeves and something I can’t stand is when men assume the character of a woman and sing as if in her literary voice. The quintessential example would be “Candy Says” by the Velvet Underground. I think there is a word for this process of putting words into women’s mouths , something like “exscription”.
Do you never read a novel with a female main character if it's written by a man?
Miaowse · 22/03/2021 16:50

That’s interesting LunaNorth that’s almost exactly how my partner described it too.

LunaNorth · 22/03/2021 16:56

@Miaowse

That’s interesting LunaNorth that’s almost exactly how my partner described it too.
I guess it’s open to interpretation, but I think the delivery helps.

Flat words on the page don’t tell the whole story. The tension towards the end of the song leaves me in no doubt the feeling’s mutual between them.

CthulhuInDisguise · 22/03/2021 17:46

I give you Lady Nina by Marillion - a cheerful ditty about cheats and sex work, with a hint of domestic violence, alcoholism and pimping.

You pick out your credit cards and check into the night
A dozen tequilas and you're feeling all right
So you swim to the disco, out of your depth jaded gigolo
Your lucky charms are tarnished so you leave alone
But there's one place left to go before the taxi home
After all you've made your marks
One night you'll play Elizabeth Taylor
The next night you're Marilyn Monroe
Forever kissing frogs that think they're princes
Oh, Lady Nina, where did all the romance go?

Your little sister baby-sits, your husband picks you up at six
The make-up hides the bruises and the tears so they never show
'Cos your beauty is the only thing you've ever owned
It's the only way you've ever known to make your marks
You made your marks, you made your marks
We believe it's for real

Ich liebe dich, liebst du mich

Lady Nina, I'd love to take you home with me
But I love my wife and I love my family
I've got a good job, responsibilities
And I need to keep respect from society
I know you'll never act with me
I know that you're in love with me
So how do I compare to the sailors of the ships of the night?
Was I all right? Did you come tonight, Lady Nina?

You made your marks, you made your marks
Ebony flowers pinned to a velvet cushion in a red light
And Edith Piaf sings a lullaby for the night
Just making marks, just making marks
Just making marks, just making marks
You made your marks

Defaultname · 22/03/2021 18:28

[quote BluebellsareBlue]@stealthpolarbear Harper Valley PTA. I love it!! [/quote]
The story was so good they made a film of it, too!

I wanna tell you all a story 'bout
A Harper Valley widowed wife
Who had a teenage daughter
Who attended Harper Valley Junior High
Well, her daughter came home one afternoon
And didn't even stop to play
And she said, "mom, I got a note here from the Harper Valley PTA"
Well, the note said, "Mrs. Johnson
You're wearin' your dresses way too high
It's reported you've been drinking
And a-running 'round with men and goin' wild
And we don't believe you oughta be a-bringin' up
Your little girl this way"
And it was signed by the Secretary
Harper Valley PTA
Well, it happened that the PTA was gonna meet
That very afternoon
And they were sure surprised
When Mrs. Johnson wore her miniskirt into the room
And as she walked up to the blackboard
I can still recall the words she had to say
She said, "I'd like to address this meeting of the Harper Valley PTA".
Well, there's Bobby Taylor sittin' there
And seven times he's asked me for a date
And Mrs. Taylor sure seems to use a lotta ice
Whenever he's away
And Mr. Baker can you tell us why
Your secretary had to leave this town?
And shouldn't widow Jones be told to keep
Her window shades all pulled completely down
Well, Mr. Harper couldn't be here
'Cause he stayed too long at Kelly's Bar again
And if you smell Shirley Thompson's breath
You'll find she's had a little nip of gin
And then you have the nerve to tell me
You think that as the mother I'm not fit
Well, this is just a little Peyton Place
And you're all Harper Valley hypocrites"
No, I wouldn't put you on because it really did
It happened just this way
The day my mama socked it to the Harper Valley PTA
The day my mama socked it to the Harper Valley PTA!

LunaNorth · 22/03/2021 18:31

Most Eagles songs give me the rage. There’s a nasty thread of misogyny running right through their back catalogue.

Lyin’ Eyes, Hotel California, Already Gone, Too Busy Being Fabulous, Take It Easy, Victim of Love...all make me cringe and roll my eyes.

I often ask DH if there was ever a point where Don Henley figured out he might have been the dickhead in his relationships...you know, Don, if you meet one twat, you’ve met a twat. If you only ever meet twats...

Justhadathought · 22/03/2021 18:40

The lyrics to Jolene are just pure 'woman to woman' stuff...don't see the issue. It is not meant to be an ideological or social commentary.

hoodathunkit · 22/03/2021 18:46

The lyrics to Jolene are just pure 'woman to woman' stuff...don't see the issue. It is not meant to be an ideological or social commentary.

Your post reminded me of the Millie Jackson Albums Caught Up and Still Caught Up, in which Millie alternates between the narrative voice of a cheated on wife, the wife’s friend and the "other woman”, she is mostly the other woman, as fitting Millie’s “bad girl” artist persona.

Primitive, dysfunctional, not remotely sisterly but raw and real.

I have never been in love with a married man (or woman), but I really appreciate Millie’s vicious, darkly funny narratives.

hoodathunkit · 22/03/2021 18:49

This is not remotely feminist, but I absolutely love it, made all the better as it is such an outrageous song and Blossom Dearie is a little old lady singing it :)

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