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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jolene, and other anti-feminist anthems

817 replies

StealthPolarBear · 20/03/2021 20:14

Just to say this is a light-hearted chat thread.
I love jolene, sing it with a minor adaptation every time I'm cleaning the windows. I have no idea about the background, but it must come near the top of the least feminist songs ever!
Another which I've just heard is sheryl crow, strong enough. "lie to me, I promise I'll believe, lie to me, but please don't leave"
Brilliant song, awful lyrics :)
Any others?

OP posts:
Gloomandglow · 21/03/2021 11:05

Never chase a man by Esme Patterson is a superb response from 'Jolene'.

The album woman to woman is just songs she wrote from the POV of characters in songs.

‘Woman To Woman’ Track listing:
(Corresponding popular songs each track responds to are listed in parentheses)

  1. Valentine (Elvis Costello – ‘Alison’)
  2. Never Chase A Man (Dolly Parton – ‘Jolene’)
  3. Oh Let’s Dance (The Kinks – ‘Lola’)
  4. Tumbleweed (Townes Van Zandt – ‘Loretta’)
  5. What Do You Call A Woman (Michael Jackson – ‘Billie Jean’)
  6. The Glow (The Beach Boys – ‘Caroline, No’)
  7. Louder Than the Sound (The Band – ‘Evangeline’)
  8. Bluebird (The Beatles – ‘Eleanor Rigby’)
  9. A Dream (Leadbelly – ‘Goodnight Irene’)
10. Wildflower (Bob Dylan – ‘To Ramona’)
hoodathunkit · 21/03/2021 11:08

Thank you! And her happiness depends on whether jolene lets her have her man or not.
I've now read the link, I accept it, but how would people counter that?

Your beauty is beyond compare
With flaming locks of auburn hair
With ivory skin and eyes of emerald green
Your smile is like a breath of spring
Your voice is soft like summer rain

I suspect that the narrator is rather more attracted to Jolene than she’s letting on

Same with Eminem’s Stan. Stan is obviously in love with Eminem but is in denial of this fact.
Both songs are loaded with homoerotic themes

I admit I wasn’t a great fan of “Jolene” when it was first released, but I discovered this enchanting medieval interpretation of it on YouTube a few weeks ago, and haven’t stopped playing it since. This is “bardcore”, and I love it! youtu.be/ugqQlB5fpuc

Thank you so much for introducing me to “bardcore” The video is a real work of art :)

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 21/03/2021 11:09

@MrsFezziwig

Just watched Seven Brides for Seven Brothers - I struggle to think of anything more offensive and wrong-headed than Sobbin' Women, but dang it's a fabulous tune.

Let’s face it, just about the whole film is all shades of wrong, but it’s one of my favourite musicals (and my late mum’s), and I’ve no intention of changing my opinion.

I feel exactly like that and many other musicals with fabulous songs (Carousel) and many memories that I share with my family.
Moonflower12 · 21/03/2021 11:09

I'm sure I read somewhere that in a recent (ish) interview that Dolly had said that she'd love to know where Jolene is now and she can have her man, as he is now a stereotypical grumpy old man who snores!

MrsFezziwig · 21/03/2021 11:12

Same for other songs like ‘will you still love me tomorrow’ - nothing wrong with that one either. These are real things that people (especially young women) do have to consider.

Thanks Ninkanink - no suggestion in that song that the boy has taken advantage of her (or “ruined her” as one PP said - now that’s an anti-feminist sentiment if I ever heard one!) - just the singer musing on the uncertainties of relationships.

MrsFezziwig · 21/03/2021 11:21

As I’m ancient, I remember all the old songs and just can’t get worked up about stuff like the Andy Williams songs - they reflect the attitudes of the time - “run to his arms the moment he comes home to you” just makes me laugh. Creepy stuff, a different matter.

I’m more worried about misogyny in modern songs as it sometimes seems we haven’t moved on at all.

Overcastcloudy · 21/03/2021 11:26

Jolene is uncomfortable, and the view of the narrator depressing as hell, mostly because she accepts that the man will take Jolene over her if that is on offer. But it's a great song as it taps into insecurity and fear and has a truth to it, even if it's an awful one. She loves her partner and fears a prettier woman can take him away at any time. The song could have been written by a man addressing another man, who fears his partner will leave him for a better-looking man. DP, as we all know, is genius at songwriting and expressing vulnerability.

Also, she wrote 9 to 5 and gets a free pass for life. Grin

Love this thread! No wonder poor Britney is in such a fragile state - her back catalog is a long warning.

hoodathunkit · 21/03/2021 11:30

Tap Turns on the Water

"Peak through the bathroom door (Did you ever, did you ever)
See your sister in the raw (Did you ever, did you ever)"

incestuous voyeurism - niiiice - this song was on the radio when I was a child and I found it scary

Can't Satisfy Her
I Wayne

Seh she flirt wid her boyfriend bredren,
Him have money and bling so she go to bed wid him
Catch disease now it started spreading
She start to seek penicillin, she's dying
Mercy please her life she begging,
When she hear to da morgue she heading
Seh she broke out at di age of seven
Strip dancing before she reach eleven
One man can't satisfy her
She needs more wood for da fire
Sex price getting higher, ah more money she require
House, car, and land she desire
So from di prostitution work she won't retire
Flames and fire,
Sun is cool, burn di flesh seller and the buyer

because sexually exploited women who were abused and exploited as children should be burned on a fire. Obviously

Hey Joe
Jimi Hendrix
Hey Joe
Where you goin' with that gun in your hand?
Hey Joe
I said, where you goin' with that gun in your hand?
I'm going down to shoot my old lady
You know, I've caught her messin' around with another man (yeah)
I'm going down to shoot my old lady
You know, I've caught her messin' around with another man
And that ain't too cool
Hey Joe
I heard you shot your woman down, shot her down, now
Hey Joe
I heard you shot your old lady down
You shot her down to the ground (yeah)
Yes I did, I shot her
You know, I caught her messin' 'round, messin' 'round town
Yes I did, I shot her
You know, I caught my old lady messin' around town
And I gave her the gun
I shot her!

Hendrix was a god, but these lyrics haven’t aged well

adviceseekingnamechanger · 21/03/2021 11:32

I love Jolene, I think it's just a woman lamenting to herself, not sure it's that anti-feminist (and love the hardcore version!)

I foun hilarious that people found it necessary to re-write the lyrics to Baby It's Cold Outside (think was John Legend) when it's clearly just flirtation but something like the Pussycat Doll's latest song is not such an issue.

It made feel a bit sick - it's called React - can be read as effectively asking for DV.

' Why don't you mess me round like you're supposed to?'
'Maybe I should count my blessings that you're not that type/Call me masochistic but sometimes I want to fight'
'I want to be losing my breath'

Complete with dance moves to simulate choking and one where they rest on their necks with their legs spread, arse in the air, crotch to camera, contorting to be sexy. It's quite the lib fem anthem Hmm

napody · 21/03/2021 11:36

@adviceseekingnamechanger

I love Jolene, I think it's just a woman lamenting to herself, not sure it's that anti-feminist (and love the hardcore version!)

I foun hilarious that people found it necessary to re-write the lyrics to Baby It's Cold Outside (think was John Legend) when it's clearly just flirtation but something like the Pussycat Doll's latest song is not such an issue.

It made feel a bit sick - it's called React - can be read as effectively asking for DV.

' Why don't you mess me round like you're supposed to?'
'Maybe I should count my blessings that you're not that type/Call me masochistic but sometimes I want to fight'
'I want to be losing my breath'

Complete with dance moves to simulate choking and one where they rest on their necks with their legs spread, arse in the air, crotch to camera, contorting to be sexy. It's quite the lib fem anthem Hmm

Dear God, not heard this but we have a winner!
Ninkanink · 21/03/2021 11:38

@Bluntness100 I take issue with what you’ve said there. Don’t you dare put words in my mouth.

Defaultname · 21/03/2021 11:38

There's a tradition in Country Music of 'The Answer Song',
So where Hank Thompson's The Wild Side of Life, blamed women for leading men astray, it was followed up by Kitty Well's hit It Wasn't God Who Made Honky Tonk Angels (written by J.D.Miller), the refrain of which was

It wasn't God who made honky tonk angels
As you said in the words of your song
Too many times married men think they're still single
And that's caused many a good girl to go wrong.

There was a bit of a spat over Bob Dylan and Joan Baez.
Her Diamonds and Rust was a tremendous evocation of their relationship, noting

Now you're telling me
You're not nostalgic
Then give me another word for it
You, who are so good with words
And at keeping things vague

Dylan then apparently dedicated a performance of Oh Sister to JB, who responded with 'Oh Brother', which runs from

Your lady gets her power
From the goddess and the stars
You get yours from the trees and the brooks
And a little from life on Mars
And I’ve known you for a good long while
And would you kindly tell me, mister
How in the name of the Father and the Son
Did I come to be your sister?

to:
You’ve done dirt to lifelong friends
With little or no excuses
Who endowed you with the crown
To hand out these abuses?
Your lady knows about these things
But they don’t put her under
Me, I know about them, too
And I react like thunder.

Which seems to make it 2-1 to Baez, but Oh Sister is a great song too!

hoodathunkit · 21/03/2021 11:39

THE leader of a Scottish rock band which sings about hitting women and rages about "Femi-nazis" is in charge of a charity that helps the victims of childhood abuse.

Bruce Hotchkies, frontman of Thunderf**k and the Deadly Romantics, has taken over as chairman of Falkirk-based Open Secret, a member of the Scottish Parliament's cross-party group on Men's Violence Against Women and Children.

The 45-year-old's appointment at the troubled charity, which is facing an independent review by the local council, comes despite his most recent video featuring a rant against feminists and the lyric: "You keep up this s**t, you're going to get hit.”

If you are a feminist, fine/but your s*t's out of line," he sings. "This one is for you. You're a Femi-nazi/a f*ing patsy. If you keep up this s*t/you're going to get hit." There is then a reference to a sexual act.

Another song, F*ked By Rock And Roll, features the lyric "Your dad ain't gonna save you from a guy like me." There then follows another reference to a sexual act. A third track, Starf*ker, is sung from the point of view of a rock star expressing contempt for a "piece of meat" groupie he is having sex with. The songs are from the band's album, Sexploitation.

Canadian-born Hotchkies was previously a drummer in a group called Britney's Krack, which styled itself as the most hated band in his home town of Hamilton, Ontario. The nearest thing it had to a hit was a video featuring a prostitute being slapped in a New York underpass to a cover of Ricky Martin's La Vida Loca.

Hotchkies said his video, This Is For You - which railed against "Femi-nazis" - was not sexist but a "F**k you to the mainstream". He said it was for all those who were the victims of cyberbullies for the way they looked or acted. He insisted Femi-nazis - a term that has been used in the 1990s as a slur on feminists - actually referred to men.

He said: "The whole video is about free women killing me. The Femi-nazis are the guys always bashing other people.”

Janine Rennie, chief executive of Open Secret, said she had never heard Hotchkies' music. "What Mr Hotchkies does in his private life is none of our business. However, I understand his work is ironic, tongue-in-cheek and he is trying to challenge some of the 1970s rock culture. The music is not connected to his work. He was brought in because of his business expertise.”

Interested readers can read more via this link

www.heraldscotland.com/news/13174177.row-over-abuse-charity-chiefs-violent-femi-nazi-song-lyrics/

The charity concerned Open Secret, now called Wellbeing Scotland, is a fascinating organisation in a Poundland version of Kids Company kind of way

Ninkanink · 21/03/2021 11:39

I’m not engaging with you any further on this.

You have your view which you’re entitled to, but I’m not going to dignify that comment with any further interaction.

Gottalife · 21/03/2021 11:42

This has to be the worst by far.

Ten Commandments by Prince Buster.

The Ten Commandments from man given to woman
Through the inspiration of I, Prince Buster
One, thou shall have no other man but me
Two, thou shall not encourage no man to make love to you
Neither kiss nor caress you
For I am your man, a very jealous man
And is ready to lay low any other man that may intrude in our love
Three, remember to kiss and caress me
Honor and obey me, in my every whim and fancy
Seven days a week and twice on Sundays
Because at no time will I ever be tired of I-T, it
Honor my name so that every other woman may honor it also
Five, thou shall not provoke me to anger
Or my wrath will descend upon you heavily
Commandment Six, thou shall not search my pockets at night
Or annoy me with your hearsays
Commandment Seven, thou shall not shout…
Commandment Eight, thou shall not drink, nor smoke
Nor use profane language
For those bad habits I will not stand for
Nine, thou shall not commit adultery
For the world will not hold me guilty if I commit
Murder
Ten, thou shall not covet thy neighbor's dress
Nor her shoes, nor her bureau, nor her bed, nor her hat
Nor anything that's hers
Neither shall thou call my attention to anything that may be for sale
In any stores, for I will not give thee anything but what
You actually need for your purpose
Those are the Ten Commandments given from man

Deliriumoftheendless · 21/03/2021 11:43

Also, she wrote 9 to 5 and gets a free pass for life. grin

Also I Will Always Love You which is beautiful.

Ninkanink · 21/03/2021 11:44

Yes and the story behind I will Always Love you is really lovely too.

SmokedDuck · 21/03/2021 11:47

@mathanxiety

...her happiness depends on having her man, and whether the other woman chooses to steal him

Essentially the singer is telling Jolene to stay in her own lane and leave her man alone because he's the best she can ever hope for, whereas Jolene has options.

I don't think we can assume he's the best she can hope for. He's the only man she'll ever love, is what she says.

People don't always love the people who are good for them, or who are the best that they could hope for.

Some of these songs are just tragic stories, I don't know that feminist or anti-femininst are really relevant categories. On of my favourite songs is Tecumseh Valley, a very sad story of a lovely girl with high hopes who ends up as a prostitute and dies. It's about how shit life can be, calling it unfeminist seems to miss the point.

SmokedDuck · 21/03/2021 11:50

@justilou1

Little China Girl - David Bowie... I think he was the sexiest ever, but this feels like it fetishises little Asian girls and that happens all too often.
China Girl is about politics, not girls from China.
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 21/03/2021 11:51

@Deliriumoftheendless

Also, she wrote 9 to 5 and gets a free pass for life. grin

Also I Will Always Love You which is beautiful.

I think there's a discussion somewhere about Dolly Parton - and it mentions an interview in which she pays touching tribute to Whitney Houston's performance of it. And how it retrospectively vindicated her decision not to let Elvis perform a cover (because the way Colonel Tom Parker had the business set up, she'd have lost the copyright to the song).
Ninkanink · 21/03/2021 11:51

It’s time to get on with the business of the day but I’ll leave you all with a trio of beautiful voices.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=wWEQDyrbphE

MissBarbary · 21/03/2021 11:52

One of my favourite songs is Tecumseh Valley, a very sad story of a lovely girl with high hopes who ends up as a prostitute and dies. It's about how shit life can be, calling it unfeminist seems to miss the point

Townes van Zandt- it's beautiful isn't it? As were so many of his songs.

SmokedDuck · 21/03/2021 11:55

@LunaNorth

Am I the only one who finds that Bruce Springsteen song really fucking sexy, rather than creepy?

Blush

I think it's sexy.

But I suspect people think he's talking about her father, which he isn't. You here the same slang in old Joni Mitchell songs sometimes, it means her husband/man.

It's interesting to read some of the ways people perceive some of these songs, I wouldn't have suspected that the languages and references would become so obscure that so many people would read them as meaning something quite different than intended.

Deliriumoftheendless · 21/03/2021 11:57

China Girl is about politics, not girls from China.
Is it? I thought it was about a girlfriend of Iggy Pop? Is that not true?

Deliriumoftheendless · 21/03/2021 11:58

Dolly Parton is a better woman than me (obviously) because the Whitney Houston version makes me want to smash things. I really hate it.