Is anyone else genuinely fearful that their GC views will become public and they will face disciplinary in their job?

[OhDear2200]

I’ve just had a frantic panic where I stupidly followed a link from my Twitter account to sign up for a professional webinar giving my work email address. It would not take anyone any time to link my GC Twitter views to my work.

Can’t believe how stupid I was!

But it’s crazy. I’m sat here panicking that I could face being sacked or receiving a serious ticking off (publicly) because I want women’s views and voices to be heard.

Now I know it’s unlikely to happen (I’ve deactivated my account) as it would take some effort. And I don’t know if the link to signing up to the Webinar would link it to my Twitter account.

Am I the only one who genuinely is fearful of their views coming out?

I'm not missing any nuance. I was in fact responding to the lack of nuance in the OPs message which was, to summarise, a frantic panic about being sacked because of a webinar registration.

And now we have a thread running in feminist chat (!) about how everyone should be frantically panicking because sacking is inevitable, and me asking for a nuanced consideration of the likelihood of mass sackings for attending webinars, is met with hostility. Which only goes to show how attached you all are to frantic panicking.

Thanks everyone and I’m saddened to read of others fears and real life experiences.

I’ve just had a look and as it turns out my old sausage fingers put in the wrong email address. So It does not seem as if the form was sent so I’m assuming that it won’t come up on any system.

I know I’m being super paranoid but I think it’s feels so different in the last 6 months. Compulsory training, pronouns, the use of the ginger bread man (girl?).

Twitter is now deleted.

@Scepticaltank I agree I panicked but don’t you think the discussion is valid? Don’t you think people’s worries are valid?

As I said about thanks for giving me a slap.

I’m not working now but I was working for the council (in a large library) and I’m sure it would have been really difficult. I noticed my colleagues with official council rainbow lanyards a year or two ago and I wondered then if it was just because of Pride or if they’d had some kind of re-education.

In fact literally just before I saw this thread I was wondering if I should just buy the book The Gendered Brain instead of reserving it via the library as maybe they’ll judge me terribly for it. But then maybe they’ll privately think oh good she gets it.

@Scepticaltank nuance is exactly what you are missing. As a self identified HR professional you should be better aware than most that there are multiple ways an employer can get rid of you if they choose.

Instead of entering into a good faith discussion on risk you jumped in with a pronouncement around “gross misconduct” when any HR professional worth their salt knows that gross misconduct is merely one small piece of the equation.

Dismissing the lived experiences of multiple women that have been silenced, or worse, at work, is pretty shabby behaviour.

I could be rude back to you about your behaviour Pegasus but you are not really worth the effort. Doom mongers rarely are.

@Scepticaltank

I'm not missing any nuance. I was in fact responding to the lack of nuance in the OPs message which was, to summarise, a frantic panic about being sacked because of a webinar registration.

And now we have a thread running in feminist chat (!) about how everyone should be frantically panicking because sacking is inevitable, and me asking for a nuanced consideration of the likelihood of mass sackings for attending webinars, is met with hostility. Which only goes to show how attached you all are to frantic panicking.

sorry Sceptical, what hostility are you experiencing here?

you might have missed my question earlier (it has been quite a fast moving thread):

have you heard of Allison Bailey, Katie Alcock, Sonia Appleby and Maya Forstater?

you might do well to search the names of these women and find out how they were sacked or removed from their positions or had heavy pressure put on their employers from Stonewall to sack them because of their views on same sex attraction, safeguarding and women's rights.

Do you think it is acceptable to subject any women to disciplinary procedures or termination of contract for their views that support women's rights and biological fact?

Are you aware that Amnesty International and Amnesty Ireland have signed a letter calling for removal of political representation and a public voice (basic human rights) from people that 'defend biology' ie. people like me who has grown three children in her body and would very much like to protect her 2 x dd's rights to single sex spaces and facilities and their legal protections.

Do you think that Amnesty's position is acceptable or proportionate? Calling for the removal of basic human rights from a group of people (mainly women) with mainstream views that have been recently deemed unacceptable by the proponents of the ideology?

Sadly I don't think OPs panic is remotely unfounded in the current climate. It will take a lot more pushing and a lot more protest from women at this blatant injustice and shutdown of free speech before we prevail in asserting our existing legal rights but we will prevail and we will assert our legal rights.

It's like bloody Giliad isn't it. I'm a teacher, I'm extremely careful on SM not to be offensive, but I do think my Twitter (anon) could cause issues if it was linked to me at work. Work currently not been Stonewalled, but doesn't mean it won't be in the future. I'm super liberal, but I'm GC. I worry that at some point I'll be looking for a new job because my views aren't acceptable to some. I'm hoping the tide is starting to turn, it can't stay this way forever.

tbf I don't thing it's doom mongering, at all. IN my case I was warned it could be viewed as gross misconduct, and to go to a hearing would take place at Civil Service HQ, London, staffed by snr managers watching each other to see how unpleasant and reactionary they could each be toward me. My only recourse would be a tribunal probably a year later...mean time I don't work in my area again and I can't pay the mortgage.

No not doom-mongering. It' called observation.

@gardenbird48 I think you’re wasting your breath. I’ve been hanging around this bored for a long while and follow(Ed) those women you name on Twitter. Their struggles are/were real.

I am absolutely certain if my views were reported to my registration organisation I would be investigated. I have no doubt that if a trans activist could link my views and my job they would enjoy the sport of seeing me lose my job.

I don’t think it’s paranoid, it seems tame compared with the shit JKR has been on the receiving end of, and Alison Bailey etc.

I run my own business, but am careful re my GC views along with political views as they may put off clients and partners. Also mostly they're just not relevant. On the other hand, I would never employ anyone who uses pronouns. I'd also give them the worst terms I can if we have to do business. I can't believe I am the only one.

I could be rude back to you about your behaviour Pegasus but you are not really worth the effort. Doom mongers rarely are

Don’t be so ridiculous

I’ve pointed out that there are many ways that a company can get rid of employees. It’s you who is determined to be rude, sneery and dismissive to women asking entirely reasonable questions.

I'm not going to read your post gardenbird, I don't need a lecturing as if I live under a rock.

My posts were directed to OP. Who has now thanked me twice for giving her some perspective on her fear and the implausibility of getting to a dismissal. Which was what I was trying to do, so it worked and I am glad OP is reassured.

No, I am not worried any more.

Why? Because all of my views, all of them, are naked up by legal and parliamentary proceedings....

I am against self ID. Turns out so are the government - it did not get passed because its too open to abuse. Exactly what the government said.

I am against medicalisation of kids. Exactly what the Tavistock judicial review concluded, and has been recorded in a court of law.

I am against boys in girls sports, what the judge agreed when the Oxfordshire schoolgirl took her LA to court to protect girls sports and rights at her school.

I am against being called a cervix having menstruator - a topic recently discussed in the HoL and legislation passed was drafted accordingly.

How can my work discipline me for views that align with Parliament, the HoL and court rulings..... How would that look in a tribunal? Happy to be the test case if it comes to that..... But I doubt it will come to that because I suspect I am not alone in what I think.....

Yes. I've actually gone through my Twitter and removed some of my retweets and likes relating to GC issues. I don't use it as much now, and I'm thinking of creating a completely anonymous one. I work in public sector, there have been suggestions to put pronouns on our email sign off just in the past couple of weeks. I feel like a coward, but I've not got long until I retire, and I don't want to put my job at risk.

I feel scared in my job. I work in teen mental health in schools. I have no doubt at all that some (certainly not all) of the non binary young people I work with feel psychologically safer by creating and curating new non binary / trans identities for themselves. Usually there’s a background of trauma / bullying / ASD which has made life really tricky for them and a new identity is a great self protective strategy - a real place of safety. I think the whole thing is a mess and it compromises my personal ethics. I could not voice any of this in role without losing my job.

Oh I do that twitter housework on a regular basis. I cant see how anyone could link that account with me BUT I don''t know for sure. So I tidy up each few days.

I work for a Stonewall champion. Bloody right I’m concerned about disciplinary action.

I don’t think it’s over-reacting at all to look at what has happened to people like Maya and Allison and to feel concerned.

Also Scottish poet Jenny Lindsay has lost almost all her freelance work because of her views.

Bathsheba that must be a really hard field to work in with all this. I’ve often wondered how the staff at my eldest’s school really feel about it all.

@Scepticaltank

I'm not going to read your post gardenbird, I don't need a lecturing as if I live under a rock.

My posts were directed to OP. Who has now thanked me twice for giving her some perspective on her fear and the implausibility of getting to a dismissal. Which was what I was trying to do, so it worked and I am glad OP is reassured.

oh ok. I haven't assumed that you live under a rock. That is nice that you feel that you have reassured op satisfactorily - that wasn't the impression I had from the posts but that's fine.

I was just reporting some facts and asking you some questions but if you are not happy to address those questions that's fine. I do remain wondering what you think of the general situation given the facts and testimonies you have been presented with but it's no big deal. I'm glad you feel in a safe enough position not to feel threatened by this but there are many that do feel threatened and they are not just making it up.

My family member is not prone to hyperbole. He is a lawyer in a very large company yet he feels that he can't speak out about something that has happened to his daughter because it will get back to his employer. I believe him.

He is not exaggerating and being the main wage earner, can't really afford to take the risk that he has misunderstood the situation with his employer (he's quite a bright lad btw so I think he understands the level of risk).

That's how this works, quiet and tacit threats and hints that if you don't toe the line it won't work out for you. With this situation, unlike any other, people seem to lose all power of rational thought and discussion and if they have made up their minds on this, then nothing will dissuade them. #nodebate.

If a company wants to dismiss an individual unfairly and that individual wants to fight it, then they need substantial financial backing to even start thinking about it. Many companies are very invested in the trans ideology and policies that unlawfully ignore their responsiblities to people with protected characteristics such as Sex (mainly women affected), Religious Beliefs and Disability. Many law firms and unions that would normally support unfair dismissal claims are captured and will not help people that challenge the ideology

This is an issue to take very seriously. I think op will get away with it this time but her swift action will have helped. It doesn't take much in a woke organisation to get yourself reported for wrongthink and before you know it you are being managed out of your role or not having your fixed term contract renewed.

OP, I think you've responded quickly enough to divert this issue and you're unlikely to have anything to worry about.

But yes, in answer to your question I do fear that. I'm an academic. My institution is up to its nuts in allies. I've seen colleagues silenced, deplatformed and worse, vilified and 'cancelled', with vitriolic open letters published online and carrying scores of signatures if someone bravely dares to err on the side of wrongthink.

The slightest deviation from the party line is all it takes. I've had enough fights on my hand at work as a result of bullying and sexual harassment. I'm exhausted by it. The younger, previous me might have found enough fire in my belly for a political fight with so much invested in it. The older, more jaded me has been worn down by the system, and no longer has the heart or stomach for it. I want to do my job in peace and go home (although I do draw a strong line at announcing 'my' pronouns, and will fight to the hilt any suggestions of 'weaponising' trauma. There are some hills on which I'm still willing to die).

It's a cop out, I know that.

Working in education, issues with SM came up many years ago, in the mid to late 2000's.

We were told to be completely secret / unfindable on fb and so I've transferred that to twitter. A colleague moaned about workload once on fb, someone told slt and we all got a stern direction about it. Which was small and insignificant but it made us all wary of anything we said. I have a separate account for twitter and one for professional reasons.

I'd love to be able to be visually speaking out but unfortunately I can't. I know people who've been doxxed.

(Unfortunately fb has a thing now where it offers up suggested friends. I think a woke dude may have deleted me due to working out a ton of GC famous women being suggested to him via me unless my super secret settings prevent that? I get offered a lot of random people due to they being friends of friends.)

I add to gardenbird48s list: Helen Watts (expelled volunteer) and Suzanne Moore. And those are only the ones we know about publicly. I suspect as pp have said, most of the cases will be below the radar, would be “managing out” rather than gross misconduct dismissal, and why would most people dare or be able to publicise their cases? Kathleen Stock set up a website to collect testimony from academics who have been harassed or isolated for their views.

In response to the OP, I cannot open up the issue at work except in the most minimal ways, although even that is more than many on this board would feel able to safely do. I absolutely 100% believe that my organisation should support trans people with empathy and without judgement, and counter stigma and discrimination, it’s part of our job. But I disagree with the idea we all have a gender identity, I think it is massively limiting and internally contradictory if we teach that to young people. I think it is vital that sex and gender retain different meanings and think that this should also be important for designing services for the trans community. This package of beliefs wouldn’t get me sacked at work but I would undoubtedly be isolated and some of the most senior and influential people would see me as personally opposed to their own publishing and teachings. I could not be sacked for it, but come the next (inevitable) restructuring/furloughs... there are a couple of hills I will die on if needed, but this is not a great time to get a new job.

How can my work discipline me for views that align with Parliament, the HoL and court rulings..... How would that look in a tribunal? Happy to be the test case if it comes to that..... But I doubt it will come to that because I suspect I am not alone in what I think.....

Well. You ask that rabbitwoman but this is directly from the ET decision in Maya Forstater's case:

Paragraph 83: "I also cannot ignore that the Claimant’s approach (save in respect of refusing to accept that a Gender Recognition Certificate changes a person’s sex for all purposes) is largely that currently adopted by the law, which still treats sex as binary as defined on a birth certificate." (emphasis added)

Paragraph 90: "The approach is not worthy of respect in a democratic society."

I think many people would say the judge overreached in ruling that the current law was not worthy of respect in a democratic society, but I also think you are wrong to feel secure just because your views align with the law.

Blimey, karmaViolet.

That is a sinister take, isn't it?

The maya forstarter case was an absolute travesty - is she appealing?

However, things really have moved on a lot since then.....

I think each industry and even individual contract is different though. I have a huge safeguarding responsibility in my job, so the Tavistock ruling in particular would be a good defense for me ; but I am also not at all interested in carer progression etc.

I feel I have a bit of a duty to speak up when and where I can, but fully appreciate it is not something everyone can risk....

Gosh. That's hit home. Food for thought.