Puberty Blockers - impact on the brain

[Triffiddealer]

Hi all

I'm well aware about the arguments about lack of evidence re. long term effects of PB on physical health / infertility etc, however I never see any discussion of how they may impact brain development.

Part of my PhD was looking at issues affecting specific teenagers and I found the research on cognitive development during puberty really interesting (Sarah Jayne Blakemore has published a lot and there is a TED talk here www.ted.com/talks/sarah_jayne_blakemore_the_mysterious_workings_of_the_adolescent_brain)

Have any cognitive neuroscientists or biologists studied this - are there implications for cognitive development / ability? I would assume that the PBs also inhibit cognitive development related to puberty, but is this true or does it only impact physical development?

One study on sheep was referenced in Bell vs Tavistock.

I posted about it on this thread here.

Have a look through the links in that post - Malcolm's Twitter threads are great.

Brilliant - thank you.

Trans kids on puberty blockers go through puberty as soon as they start on estrogen or testosterone.

The psychological stress of not being affirmed is likely to have long term consequences of the brains of trans kids, possibly leading to lifelong mental health issues.

Do let us know if you find anything else!

That is the only paper I've heard of looking into that particular area. If gender clinics manage any research at all they're trying (generally unsuccessfully) to find positive effects on mental health, or doing some grudging monitoring of physical health. I don't think any have dared try to look for cognitive effects.

I've not actually gone looking though myself. I just monitor the media feeds...

So the answer is that it’s not been studied apart from sheep? I guess it would be a brave scientist that puts that forward as a possible thesis.

Trans kids on puberty blockers go through puberty as soon as they start on estrogen or testosterone.

Have you got a citation for that? This is something I am really interested in as puberty is a very complex process, and I am interested in exactly what happens when a child goes from puberty blockers onto cross-sex hormones (plus my understanding was that transwomen in particular often continued to take testosterone blocking medication lifelong?

Trans kids on puberty blockers go through puberty as soon as they start on estrogen or testosterone.

So a female child who never goes through female puberty, will never have the correct amounts of oestrogen in her female body necessary for the growth of her female bones, will never have the correct amount of oestrogen in her body for the development of her female brain. Will only ever have testosterone which is not meant for her female body and will not allow her female body to develop as it should.

Fucking GREAT! What could possibly go wrong?!

"Have you got a citation for that?"

Well you know how trans girls taking estrogen grow boobs and develop hips and full bottoms etc? And you know how trans boys on testosterone grow beards and their voices break etc?

"my understanding was that transwomen in particular often continued to take testosterone blocking medication lifelong?"

Trans women often take an anti-androgen until they have had an orchiectomy or vaginoplasty. But that's not the same thing as a puberty blocker. Often they just take Finasteride, which men can also get from their doctor to help prevent baldness. Having said that, many trans women never take an anti-androgen because the estrogen completely overwhelms the testosterone making it innefectual.

No they don’t go through Puberty - that’s patently and scientifically wrong. What they go through after stopping Puberty Blockers (that have suppressed their own natural puberty), is a hormonal regime that brings about some hormonally-triggered secondary sexual characteristics that their own bodies could not have set in train. And then, to maintain some of these, they need to keep taking those cross-sex hormones. That’s not Puberty. You’re not suddenly going to induce menstruation in someone who doesn’t have a womb or ovaries for instance.

I know there’s probably a feeling that you’re going through the ‘right’ puberty but I would hope that no one actually prescribing these hormones are telling young people this. It’s a treatment that can alleviate gender dysphoria and a powerful one granted but it’s not actually puberty.

The psychological stress of not being affirmed

And yet neither PB or transitioning have been found to improve mental health. Quite the opposite.

Juliesipadwillcallyouback

Yes Julie. Who on earth would ignore the adverse effects that are already out there for effects of certain groups of drugs and surgeries on females to progress a narrative that seems to benefit on sex class over another?

Will any acknowledgement of these health risks to females be forth coming?

@Juliesipadwillcallyouback

Trans kids on puberty blockers go through puberty as soon as they start on estrogen or testosterone.

So a female child who never goes through female puberty, will never have the correct amounts of oestrogen in her female body necessary for the growth of her female bones, will never have the correct amount of oestrogen in her body for the development of her female brain. Will only ever have testosterone which is not meant for her female body and will not allow her female body to develop as it should.

Fucking GREAT! What could possibly go wrong?!

Girls already have testosterone in their bodies - they just don't tend to have as much as boys.

Well you know how trans girls taking estrogen grow boobs and develop hips and full bottoms etc? And you know how trans boys on testosterone grow beards and their voices break etc?

That's not 'puberty'.

Girls who never go through a female puberty will not have oestrogen in their female body to develop healthy bones and brains. How can you think this is OK, WTAF?!

@Tibtom

The psychological stress of not being affirmed

And yet neither PB or transitioning have been found to improve mental health. Quite the opposite.

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/

"We conducted a systematic literature review of all peer-reviewed articles published in English between 1991 and June 2017 that assess the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being. We identified 55 studies that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 51 (93%) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people, while 4 (7%) report mixed or null findings. We found no studies concluding that gender transition causes overall harm."

"2. Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use."

"4. Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved. Pooling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques."

"6. Transgender individuals, particularly those who cannot access treatment for gender dysphoria or who encounter unsupportive social environments, are more likely than the general population to experience health challenges such as depression, anxiety, suicidality and minority stress. While gender transition can mitigate these challenges, the health and well-being of transgender people can be harmed by stigmatizing and discriminatory treatment."

Shinzu - I appreciate that you have a different perspective to most of the posters on this thread - but I am specifically interested in academic research not the same old arguments- if you know of any research in this area that confirms your view please contribute

I know there’s probably a feeling that you’re going through the ‘right’ puberty

I understand that testosterone, regardless of the effect on the body, is also a mood enhancer. So this, along with the feeling relief at getting something yoi have been told you need, plus and element of regression to mean and placebo, would mean in the short term you are bound to feel better.

@Juliesipadwillcallyouback

Well you know how trans girls taking estrogen grow boobs and develop hips and full bottoms etc? And you know how trans boys on testosterone grow beards and their voices break etc?

That's not 'puberty'.

Girls who never go through a female puberty will not have oestrogen in their female body to develop healthy bones and brains. How can you think this is OK, WTAF?!

Trans men have normal bone density:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/

Girls already have testosterone in their bodies - they just don't tend to have as much as boys.

Yes, a small amount which works alongside that (apparently unnecessary to you) other hormone oestrogen.

Testosterone alone will not allow a female body to develop as it should. It is vital that women who go through an early menopause for whatever reason are given certain treatments to stop their bones crumbling to dust. Children who have been put on puberty blockers for precocious puberty (rather than a perfectly normally developing puberty) still have been reported to have issues. A significant number of the female Olympic Athletes who were doping with testosterone in the 1980s are dead now.

I feel sick at this thread, is this real that people actually think this is perfectly OK? For children who have been told they are in 'the wrong body' can be treated in this way?

Also - this isn’t about ‘transitioning’ which I would agree is sometimes the right approach but specifically about puberty blockers

The definition of 'puberty' is ''the process of physical changes through which a child 's body matures into an adult body capable of sexual reproduction. It is initiated by hormonal signals from the brain to the gonads: the ovaries in a girl, the testes in a boy.''

Children who are given puberty blockers and cross sex hormones dont go through puberty. Their sexual organs don't develop, or create the gametes related to their sex.

If you stop giving them the blockers and the cross sex hormones while they are still young enough, they will go through puberty; if you leave it too late they won't.

A man talks about his experience of growing up with Kallman Syndrome;
www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1852-6-awful-ways-life-changes-when-you-never-go-through-puberty.html

There's been discussions on mn before; I remember a lot around the hippocampus being mentioned.

The sheep studies show a difference in the effect of PB between male and female sheep, and more research is needed.

Irrc it's worse for the female brain. Also, Iirc affects spatial reasoning.

There's lots of parallel research around the hippocampus and importance of its development in teen brain for overriding the amygdala I think. Also the positive impact of exercise on hippocampus. (But you probably know that.)

(They study sheep for pubertal brains as it's the closest brain to a human; apparently a normal way to study as obviously we don't want to experiment on actual teens.

Oh wait...)

@Juliesipadwillcallyouback

Girls already have testosterone in their bodies - they just don't tend to have as much as boys.

Yes, a small amount which works alongside that (apparently unnecessary to you) other hormone oestrogen.

Testosterone alone will not allow a female body to develop as it should. It is vital that women who go through an early menopause for whatever reason are given certain treatments to stop their bones crumbling to dust. Children who have been put on puberty blockers for precocious puberty (rather than a perfectly normally developing puberty) still have been reported to have issues. A significant number of the female Olympic Athletes who were doping with testosterone in the 1980s are dead now.

I feel sick at this thread, is this real that people actually think this is perfectly OK? For children who have been told they are in 'the wrong body' can be treated in this way?

"Testosterone alone will not allow a female body to develop as it should."

It enables a trans boy's body to develop in a way that helps him overcome his gender dysphoria and live the live he feels is right for him

"A significant number of the female Olympic Athletes who were doping with testosterone in the 1980s are dead now."

What percentage of trans men are killed by testosterone?

"I feel sick at this thread, is this real that people actually think this is perfectly OK? For children who have been told they are in 'the wrong body' can be treated in this way?"

I'm afraid you have that back to front - it is typically the child who tells tha adult that they are in the wrong body. It's not literal of course - it's just a shorthand that expresses a little of how it feels to be trans. Even if you did tell a child they were "in the wrong body", it wouldn't change their gender identity - if it could then you could simply "cure" trans kids by telling them they are in the right body, and you can't.

[quote Thelnebriati]The definition of 'puberty' is ''the process of physical changes through which a child 's body matures into an adult body capable of sexual reproduction. It is initiated by hormonal signals from the brain to the gonads: the ovaries in a girl, the testes in a boy.''

Children who are given puberty blockers and cross sex hormones dont go through puberty. Their sexual organs don't develop, or create the gametes related to their sex.

If you stop giving them the blockers and the cross sex hormones while they are still young enough, they will go through puberty; if you leave it too late they won't.

A man talks about his experience of growing up with Kallman Syndrome;
www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1852-6-awful-ways-life-changes-when-you-never-go-through-puberty.html[/quote]
You mean infertile people never went through puberty? Who knew?

As an aside, Lisa Mosconi has done lots of research around the female brain and it's physiological differences and hormones and implications for brain health in later life.

I'm reading her book the XX brain at the moment; it's fascinating.

I also can't help thinking that transmen's brains may be harmed by missing the oestrogen in later life?

www.lisamosconi.com/

@WarriorN

There's been discussions on mn before; I remember a lot around the hippocampus being mentioned.

The sheep studies show a difference in the effect of PB between male and female sheep, and more research is needed.

Irrc it's worse for the female brain. Also, Iirc affects spatial reasoning.

There's lots of parallel research around the hippocampus and importance of its development in teen brain for overriding the amygdala I think. Also the positive impact of exercise on hippocampus. (But you probably know that.)

(They study sheep for pubertal brains as it's the closest brain to a human; apparently a normal way to study as obviously we don't want to experiment on actual teens.

Oh wait...)

Just having a little giggle to myself here what would happen here if I posted some science showing that sheep have a gender identity and then extrapolating that to humans.