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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Puberty Blockers - impact on the brain

207 replies

Triffiddealer · 20/03/2021 11:04

Hi all

I'm well aware about the arguments about lack of evidence re. long term effects of PB on physical health / infertility etc, however I never see any discussion of how they may impact brain development.

Part of my PhD was looking at issues affecting specific teenagers and I found the research on cognitive development during puberty really interesting (Sarah Jayne Blakemore has published a lot and there is a TED talk here www.ted.com/talks/sarah_jayne_blakemore_the_mysterious_workings_of_the_adolescent_brain)

Have any cognitive neuroscientists or biologists studied this - are there implications for cognitive development / ability? I would assume that the PBs also inhibit cognitive development related to puberty, but is this true or does it only impact physical development?

OP posts:
ScoldsBible · 20/03/2021 13:16

Sheep have proved particularly valuable for research into neuro-degenerative diseases - for those who wish to know more, this is an interesting link conductscience.com/maze/sheep-as-an-animal-model/

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 20/03/2021 13:24

During puberty the brain effectively rewires itself - that is why teens perceive risk differently to adults, because their brain works differently.

I assume that if you don't complete the process of puberty then your brain remains in a juvenile state.

It would be nice to have some research into that, but, apparently it is better to just medicate people and hope for the best. I'd really like to see something published on the medical ethics of transgender care, because I have some questions.

Juliesipadwillcallyouback · 20/03/2021 13:27

@AfternoonToffee

What is most disturbing is the absolute denial of any negative effects of pbs, despite there being concrete evidence that there is. Even just a "I know there are risks but I feel the benefits outweigh them" would be better than the absolute total denial.
Yes!

The whole 'stop going on about it ya big transphobe, it's fiiiiiine' aspect of this is so chilling.

Datun · 20/03/2021 13:30

Posting to placemark, because I'm interested in those NICE results.

I was struck, when watching Stella Omalleys documentary, how the women who had transitioned young, all appeared quite immature and childlike.

WarriorN · 20/03/2021 13:34

During puberty the brain effectively rewires itself - that is why teens perceive risk differently to adults, because their brain works differently

From bits of reading done before it's the development of the hippocampus that is important at overriding the impulsivity of the amygdala if I remember correctly.

So if normal puberty hormones for a specific xy or xx brain aren't being allowed to develop and exert their influence on the brain structure and development of certain areas of brain matter it does beg the question about what the impact of that is

I linked to dr Lisa Mosconi's research as she has looked at the xx brain from the POV of the chromosomes the cells have and the impact of oestrogen, progesterone and other hormones plus the deficit.

WarriorN · 20/03/2021 13:36

(Fully agreeing with you viv)

Sophoclesthefox · 20/03/2021 13:37

@Shizuku

I know you love that Cornell study, and cite it repeatedly, but I’ve just gone through it and from what I can see, none of the underlying studies it cites look at children, adolescents, puberty or hormone blockers. You’re aware of that, right, that it’s completely irrelevant to the question that this thread poses?

You might at least try to engage in the topic at hand.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2021 13:37

Jazz's mum complaining to other mums that she is worried Jazz isn't using their dialator properly and consistently, that she hands Jazz the dialator and says 'do it or I will do it myself' and that if Jazz doesn't use it properly at college and 'that thing seals up' she will 'wring her neck'

That was truly shocking. And not much about this shocks me.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2021 13:38

I know you love that Cornell study, and cite it repeatedly

It's really not the slam dunk shizuku thinks.

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2019/04/51524/

WarriorN · 20/03/2021 13:39

In fact the reworking of the brain during puberty is more pertinent to children who have perhaps have had a lot of trauma in their lives.

My LA basic safeguarding course always talks about how the right input and care at that age can have a positive impact on the brain, behaviour and cognitive development.

(We look at the brain 0-3 and then the brain in puberty in relation to cognition, behaviour, trauma and safeguarding.)

WarriorN · 20/03/2021 13:40

The right care and input alongside normal brain pubertal development.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2021 13:42

A further difficulty with the project’s narrative is that findings associating transition with immediate improvements in perceived well-being do not necessarily contradict the accounts of many persons who later came to regret transition. Those who regret transition often report that they initially felt better; only as time passed did they realize that transition had not resolved underlying problems. Furthermore, reliance on self-reported metrics is a poor substitute for objective evaluations; it is a commonplace that those who are struggling often insist that they are just fine.

Thus, there is a need for longitudinal studies to assess the medium-to-long-term effects of transition on well-being. Unfortunately, many of the longitudinal studies touted by the What We Know Project are crippled by low response rates as well as self-reported data. For instance, a European studyy^ of patients who had undergone surgical transition had only sixty-two of 107 patients participate (58 percent), while thirty could not be reached and fifteen refused. Another European studyy^ had 201 out of 546 respond—just 37 percent. In addition to these poor response rates, some follow-up studies were also extremely small, such as a samplee^ of twelve FtM patients (out of seventeen) who completed a survey after breast reduction surgery.

It is possible that those who cooperate with long-term studies are representative of those who cannot be found or refuse to participate. It is even possible that non-participants are doing better than those who take part in follow-up studies. But it is also possible that the pool of non-participants is where bad outcomes are most likely to be found—not just those with regrets, but also the depressed, the addicted, the homeless, and the dead. It is reasonable to suppose (and some researchh^ suggests) that those with worse outcomes would be unreachable or uncooperative. Of course, this remains speculative so long as so much data is missing. What is clear is that is it reckless to ignore the low response rate of longitudinal studies when promoting them.

Just some of the criticisms of the studies in the Cornell paper.

WarriorN · 20/03/2021 13:43

Also, how many detransitioned? So fell off or decided to opt out of the research?

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 20/03/2021 13:47

We don't know how many detransitioned - that came out in the Bell case. They just didn't turn up for appointments and no follow up effort was made. For distressed children. Shameful.

Wasn't there research at Cambridge looking at detransitioners that was cancelled because it was politically incorrect?

OldCrone · 20/03/2021 13:49

Trans men have normal bone density:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/

Once again, Shizuku's links don't say what Shizuku says they do. That is a review paper, and on the subject of bone density and bone mass in adolescents who take hormone blockers followed by opposite sex hormones it links to a few studies, including this one:

academic.oup.com/jcem/article/100/2/E270/2814818
In conclusion, this is the first study on the effects of early medical intervention of adolescents with GD regarding bone mass and demonstrates a loss of LS BMD z score at age 22 years.

WarriorN · 20/03/2021 13:50

Wasn't there research at Cambridge looking at detransitioners that was cancelled because it was politically incorrect?

Exactly, there's that too.

Helleofabore · 20/03/2021 13:51

Sophoclesthefox

Yes. I pointed that out to a poster a few months ago. The current cohort of Female children and teen transitioners are not covered in that group of studies.

Sophoclesthefox · 20/03/2021 13:55

The other angle that I’ve come at this from, given the dearth of research on puberty blockers themselves, is to look at the literature on what does happen, cognitively speaking, during puberty, that we can suppose will be impacted or hindered by using GnRHa blockers. It’s not just sex hormones that get blocked, is it?

I’m mid way through this fascinating article:
The Teenage Brain: Surging Hormones—Brain-Behavior Interactions During Puberty journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0963721412473755

There’s just so much that goes on! Highly recommend a read. The more I think and read on this, the more I think that blocking natural hormones and substituting exogenous ones is fraught with unknown danger.

Triffiddealer · 20/03/2021 14:01

Thank you for all the links folks - I've got some reading to do and I'll try to keep up with the NICE research.

I will definitely give the Lisa Mosconi podcast a listen - that looks really interesting.

OP posts:
Sophoclesthefox · 20/03/2021 14:01

@Helleofabore

Sophoclesthefox

Yes. I pointed that out to a poster a few months ago. The current cohort of Female children and teen transitioners are not covered in that group of studies.

I think it’s going to continue to get wheeled out at every opportunity, regardless because facts! And science!
WarriorN · 20/03/2021 14:05

@Triffiddealer

Thank you for all the links folks - I've got some reading to do and I'll try to keep up with the NICE research.

I will definitely give the Lisa Mosconi podcast a listen - that looks really interesting.

It may not give you the raw data you're looking for but I do wonder about research she's drawn on for it.

I do think looking at PB precocious puberty use is a good area.

gardenbird48 · 20/03/2021 14:09

From various articles available on Lupron which as I understand it, is typical of the class of drugs commonly used as puberty blockers. I know there are a few different types but presumably as they are broadly similar in their function, they may have broadly similar issues?

This first article sounds rather concerning. An IQ drop of 8 points is initially dismissed as not significant but in the same way as the lack of increase in bone density at an absolutely key stage of development (where it should be increasing enormously), any drop in IQ at this stage of a child's life and development should be huge cause for concern. Reports from individual patients show a more serious situation for some children.

A study of GnRHa’s in 2001 showed “IQ levels decreased significantly” (a mean 7 point drop, but “doubts exist about the clinical relevance”), and in 2016 another GnRHa study reported an IQ drop of around 8 points was noted (which was found in the study to be “not significant”). These studies were conducted outside the US, but within the US Lupron dominates the market. Where are the pediatric (or adult) Lupron IQ studies, and why do these pediatric studies dismiss the significant decreases in IQ? Wouldn’t any IQ drop of 8 points be significant? This is information that would be critical to the decision-making of any parent/child. And the “doubts” about clinical relevance and ‘non-significance’ of GnRHa-induced intelligence decline should be pursued by the media – and medicine.

One mother who contacted me reported after the first Lupron injection her child experienced:

“Complete inability to focus on anything – grades plummeted … couldn’t remember where either tooth paste or brush were located, or sock drawer. Could not repeat simple instructions or follow them. Our sunshine child was sad and without typical ‘I can do anything’ attitude.”
“My own story is that after taking Lupron [for endometriosis] I now have bone loss, severe bone and joint pain requiring heavy painkillers to get out of bed, chest pain, tachycardia, fibromyalgia and horrible memory loss, hair loss and weight gain. Prior to Lupron I ran and boxed everyday. I was healthy even though endometriosis caused significant pain. It has now been a year since my Lupron treatments and my life is in medical shambles.”
The FDA reports that, as long ago as 1999, it had received adverse drug reports about Lupron® from 4,228 women and 2,943 men.1 These side effects included: tingling, itching, headache and migraine, dizziness, severe joint pain, difficulty breathing, chest pain, nausea, depression, emotional instability, dimness of vision, fainting, weakness, amnesia, hypertension, muscular pain, bone pain, nausea/vomiting, asthma, abdominal pain, insomnia, chronic enlargement of the thyroid, liver function abnormality, vision abnormality, and anxiety, and others.2 In 325 of these cases, the women required hospitalization; 25 women died.3 At the time, the FDA said that it did not have enough staff capacity to assess any causal effect in these cases.

As with many drugs, side effects have long been a problem. More than 20,000 adverse-event reports have been filed with the FDA in the last decade. Women have reported to the FDA hundreds of cases of insomnia, depression, joint pain, and more than 100 cases of blurred vision. About 900 reports cite side effects that children below age 13 have suffered, mostly within months of taking Lupron. Those reports frequently note injection-site pain but also include dozens of cases of bone problems, such as pain or disorders, and the inability to walk.

www.hormonesmatter.com/lupron-precocious-puberty-decades-regulatory-silence/

www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/
nwhn.org/lupron-what-does-it-do-to-womens-health/

WarriorN · 20/03/2021 14:30

Chilling, gardenbird

Helleofabore · 20/03/2021 14:32

@OldCrone

Trans men have normal bone density:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/

Once again, Shizuku's links don't say what Shizuku says they do. That is a review paper, and on the subject of bone density and bone mass in adolescents who take hormone blockers followed by opposite sex hormones it links to a few studies, including this one:

academic.oup.com/jcem/article/100/2/E270/2814818
In conclusion, this is the first study on the effects of early medical intervention of adolescents with GD regarding bone mass and demonstrates a loss of LS BMD z score at age 22 years.

Yes. I didn’t get an answer when I asked them if they’d actually read ALL that was in that paper.

Including the admission early on that there was too little research into the negative effects of puberty blockers.

Helleofabore · 20/03/2021 14:40

I think it’s going to continue to get wheeled out at every opportunity, regardless because facts! And science!

sophaclesthefox

I think that posters either haven’t looked at the 50+ studies or think we won’t. The poster a few months ago posted it and used the ‘here’s 50 studies that disagree’ and I pointed out each of the first 15 why they didn’t covered the topic under discussion. And then just grouped the others into subsets as to why they weren’t applicable. I didn’t get a thank you for doing it though.