Consent for women

[ArabellaScott]

A reminder:

You don't owe anyone your attention.

You have no obligation to 'include' anyone in your 'dating pool'.

Your sexual preferences are yours and yours alone.

Nobody has the right to shame you for your sexual preferences.

Nobody has the right to question your sexual preferences.

When it comes to sex and sexual preferences, nobody has the right to demand your attention, your consideration or your attraction.

Not ever.

@Iidentifyasacat

But *@TedMullins you still don't seem to be grasping this is a thread about consent*. Questioning someone's choice to consent could be considered coercive. You may not have been in the position of "but why won't you sleep with me?!" coercive questions but I have and it's absolutely awful and in my case absolutely was coercive (I was a young teenager and highly impressionable not that really makes a big difference but still).

I do get the points on consent and I agree with them! I have been in that position too and it is awful, it’s abusive. But the OP talked about questioning preferences which is a wider topic than linear consent. Perhaps I misunderstood what she meant by that, because to me a yes or no to sex is not a preference, it’s a decision. I agree nobody should question your decision as to whether to sleep with them. I’m not trying to twist words here but I seems I took a different meaning from the word ‘preferences’ to the one intended.

WaronWomen noted that 'orientation' is a better descriptor than 'preference' and I agreed with her.

I still think that nobody should question anyone's sexual preference. By 'question' I don't mean in an abstract discussion. I mean in the context of a proposal and consideration/discussion of sex:

'Do you want to have sex?'
'No, I don't find bisexuals attractive'

'why not?' in that context is not appropriate.

Interesting that women discussing consent and boundaries must be disrupted and forced to justify wanting to keep a thread focused on the topic in the OP. Interesting that we are repeatedly asked to consider dropping our boundaries and that boundaries are conflated with prejudices.

This is what young women are up against and how they have their concept of consent is eroded via social media posts along these lines so that by the time they come up against it for real their boundaries are weakened and confused.

You said “nobody has the right to question your preferences”, I disagreed, and I have just provided examples of times where preferences were questioned and nothing bad happened.

This seems to me to be to introduce a completely different matter, though.

That you have had a discussion is fine if that was your choice. What is not acceptable is someone of any sex or gender or race or species assuming the RIGHT to discussion, or anything whatever beyond the word "no". Even "thank-you" at that point is not their right but the privilege of person saying no to offer or not.

In a social context, nobody whatever has the right to any more of my time than I choose to give them.

@DaisiesandButtercups

Interesting that women discussing consent and boundaries must be disrupted and forced to justify wanting to keep a thread focused on the topic in the OP. Interesting that we are repeatedly asked to consider dropping our boundaries and that boundaries are conflated with prejudices.

This is what young women are up against and how they have their concept of consent is eroded via social media posts along these lines so that by the time they come up against it for real their boundaries are weakened and confused.

I admit, I'm tired of continually trying to keep things on track, in a nice way too so I dont offend. Plenty of times I want to say oh do fuck off dear instead. But for the lurkers (and this might be a lurkers first view of this issue) I'm polite. Also the roolz, but more for the lurkers

Interesting that we are repeatedly asked to consider dropping our boundaries and that boundaries are conflated with prejudices.

Yep.

I want a campaign that empowers women and girls to say no, clearly, without fear, without explanation or the suggestion they should examine their prejudices.

Doesn't the rot set in when there is the suggestion that someone (anyone) has the right to require more from another person than what that person has offered?

I've just added "committed Socialist" to my "I wouldn't shag you if we were the only people surviving after an apocalypse" list.

And I don't owe anyone an explanation why not.

Yes, good point, Asking.

I wholeheartedly support that campaign ArabellaScott, it is a very important campaign.

Yes AskingQuestionsAllTheTime it really does.

You say it's worth examining these things - I'm not sure why or it in what way it's beneficial. To whom and in what way is it worth it?

Isn't that veering right into Incel territory? I can't see that it's of any benefit to anyone other than someone who thinks they aren't getting enough opportunities to have sex.

@MissBarbary

You say it's worth examining these things - I'm not sure why or it in what way it's beneficial. To whom and in what way is it worth it?

Isn't that veering right into Incel territory? I can't see that it's of any benefit to anyone other than someone who thinks they aren't getting enough opportunities to have sex.

Erm... academics specialising in sexual politics? They examine this stuff literally for a living. Feminists who write books on it? If it’s not worth examining do you think none of this stuff is of any value? Plenty of people hold an interest in the evolution of social norms and how they come about. Do you also think other topics are not worth any kind of dissection?

Also LOL at the “this is what young women are up against”... I am, literally, a young woman, I have read these boards for a few years now and posted on them before. I’ve never disagreed with the central point that declining to have sex with someone is your absolute right, whatever the reasons, but whether I misinterpreted the meaning of ‘preference’ or not, it’s frankly a bit bizarre how threatened people feel by someone starting a discussion about where preferences stem from. I honestly don’t care that you don’t like socialists or wouldn’t sleep with bisexuals, that’s your choice, crack on! I fully support your right to choose who has access to your body, as I’ve said from the start. But it’s not really a very winning strategy to bring more women round to your viewpoint to accuse someone interested in the topic of wilfully derailing a thread. I’m not even sure what your viewpoint is, to be honest, because I don’t disagree about anything that’s been said about consent, and all I’m getting here is that open discussion isn’t welcome, so... how exactly do you propose not to alienate these “young women” you’re concerned about if the moment they open a discussion you default to being defensive and condescending?

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Doesn't the rot set in when there is the suggestion that someone (anyone) has the right to require more from another person than what that person has offered?

Assuming this is aimed at me, I have never suggested anyone has the right to an explanation. I’ve expressed a pretty innocuous opinion that the background and societal context and influence of sexual preferences is interesting to explore in a general/abstract sense. That’s really not very controversial.

Actually, I know this may come as a surprise to you, but I wasn't talking either to or about you.

Assuming this is aimed at me, I have never suggested anyone has the right to an explanation
Says Ted at 18.26

You, to person you’re on a date with: ‘I don’t want to sleep with anyone under 6ft’
Date person: ‘oh really, why’s that?’ Innocent conversation

Said Ted earlier this afternoon.

As pointed out the question is not "innocent conversation" It's asking for an explanation.

Okay, apologies, my error. I agree with you btw.

No-one is obliged to expand their sexual preferences.

If one should think someone else's dating pool is too narrow, surely the only person missing out is them. If one does feel concern for them, one would be better to take that energy and to devote it to a cause that is requesting outside assistance.

Thanks PotholeHellhole

Awww. Bear carer!

@DaisiesandButtercups

Just for reference

“Sealioning is a type of trolling... that consists of pursuing people with persistent... or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity.”

Quote from Wikipedia hence the American spelling.

For more information on such tactics check out the Bunbury threads.

I love the bear link Pothole and will put it to the family for our monthly charitable donation.

Jesus fucking Christ. So anyone who wants a discussion or to examine some theoretical concepts is a troll? You do realise you’re just doing the online equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going LA LA LA IM NOT LISTENING, right? Feel free to search me and check my posting history. I think I’ve been quite consistent in my views while also contributing to threads on entirely unrelated topics. Seriously, I’d love an answer to the question of how you propose to help young women embrace feminism and learn about what it means for them and help empower them as you seem to want, when you can’t even have a discussion without undermining someone’s credibility? I am and always will be a feminist and as a journalist I’m aware of the impact of cultural sexism in the media and society and how pervasive it can be, I actively seek out various viewpoints and interpretations of feminism, but if I was younger and less well-informed the kind of responses I’ve had here could very well lead me to sticking two fingers up and saying ‘yeah you know what, people are right when they say feminism is bollocks’. I’m not going to do that because I know it isn’t bollocks, I think many here actually just don’t understand the point I was originally making or misinterpreted it. I respect people’s right to disagree with me, but it doesn’t seem like that goes two ways.

Preferences to me mean specific things within your sexuality, or things that could apply across all sexualities, like body types, race, hair colour, lifestyle etc. Again, I don’t think questioning the reasons these arise in a cultural context is a bad thing

'Not a bad thing' doesn't mean you should feel you have to do it. If somebody only wants to date short, blonde men with a Glaswegian accent and large feet, that's their business, as long as they don't go around saying "Ugh... tall dark-haired etc men are unattractive ".

it’s still your absolute right to refuse to have sex with anyone you don’t want to.

There shouldn't even be a situation where anyone has to 'refuse' to have sex with someone in the grounds of sexual preference, since the default assumption should always be that having sex with someone has to be an active, positive choice,not something you need to give a reason for not doing!

I don't think it's that people don't understand your point. It's that they don't want to discuss it here, on this thread.

@lazylinguist

Preferences to me mean specific things within your sexuality, or things that could apply across all sexualities, like body types, race, hair colour, lifestyle etc. Again, I don’t think questioning the reasons these arise in a cultural context is a bad thing

'Not a bad thing' doesn't mean you should feel you have to do it. If somebody only wants to date short, blonde men with a Glaswegian accent and large feet, that's their business, as long as they don't go around saying "Ugh... tall dark-haired etc men are unattractive ".

it’s still your absolute right to refuse to have sex with anyone you don’t want to.

There shouldn't even be a situation where anyone has to 'refuse' to have sex with someone in the grounds of sexual preference, since the default assumption should always be that having sex with someone has to be an active, positive choice,not something you need to give a reason for not doing!

Yes, I agree. Perhaps refuse was the wrong word. It is your right NOT to choose to have sex with them would have been better.

There is a limit to the amount of time anyone wants to spend having a discussion in which they have no interest, I'd suppose.