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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Jordan Peterson

283 replies

Wilsonwilson · 15/03/2021 02:10

What do people make of him? Watched the triggernometry interview with him yesterday. I have previously seen bits and bobs of his but not taken much notice. In the interview he pointed out that out that his greatest criticism has been because he was lecturing people whilst being a benzo addict, tbh this was my criticism.

I don't know, to me he just seems disingenuous somehow, could be my bias like he says.

OP posts:
Erkrie · 21/03/2021 19:28

I don't have the time to go searching right now

No. Of course you don't....

but lobsters are the perfect example of this. He uses them to justify our current hierarchies

He uses lobsters as an explanation, not a justification

Erkrie · 21/03/2021 19:29

As he presents and endorses so many views, some basic common sense, some awful (antisemitic cultural Marxism for example) I'd love to know what exactly you're referring to.

I'd love to see the evidence of what you are referring to here....

But you don't have time right.

MaMaLa321 · 21/03/2021 19:32

would you like to start by telling us what exactly you know about him?
You views seem a bit random, tbh.

Your clam of 'antisemitic cultutal Marxism' is interesting - I'd like to hear more, seeing as I've never come across it in what he says. But I'm not an expert, so please tell me more.

Erkrie · 21/03/2021 19:33

I've never seen him present any studies, are they on YouTube somewhere?

There's loads of lectures on YouTube. They're quite long though. Obviously just watching the snapshots people out up, out of context, are not the best way to actually find out what he's about

Erkrie · 21/03/2021 19:33

*put up

Gurufloof · 21/03/2021 20:18

[quote MuggleStudiesResearchProject]@gurufloof

I don't have the time to go searching right now, but lobsters are the perfect example of this. He uses them to justify our current hierarchies, which is an enormous and unjustifiable leap. It sounds like science because the lobster physiology is based on reproducible science, but linking it in the way he does just feels like grasping.[/quote]
Well I dunno when I can hunt it down but so I'm ready, is that it, a lobster analogy? Or is there more arbitrarily linked stuff?
Is there some other references outcome that I should look for.
Cos so far if just one random lobster related I'm not sure I can be arsed, and while I'm here asking, is this an old talk?

Doona · 21/03/2021 20:22

Why not actually only have the people around you who have your best interests.
And if men did this and were happier as a result, then surely we women will benefit from that. And if women did this and were happier then fabulous

Babies and people with dementia and other illnesses, don't necessarily have your best interests at heart but we can't just abandon those people. Or can we? Some people do of course, and those people are disproportionately men. It's women who still do most of the caring. Some of the people who need care have the carers' best interests at heart and some don't.

It must be nice to feel morally justified to walk away from that kind of stuff, but I don't respect people who do and I definitely don't think it makes society better off.

Erkrie · 21/03/2021 20:29

It must be nice to feel morally justified to walk away from that kind of stuff, but I don't respect people who do and I definitely don't think it makes society better of

Surrounding yourself with people that you actually like doesn't mean not taking responsibility for vulnerable people that you care for. And he's not advocating that people should walk away from their responsibilities is he. That's quite a reach you've made there though. Like so many...

Gurufloof · 21/03/2021 20:35

It must be nice to feel morally justified to walk away from that kind of stuff, but I don't respect people who do and I definitely don't think it makes society better off

Luckily I dont give two hoots if you dont respect me. And I don't think surrounding myself with people who have my best interest in mind is also abdicating all responsibility for others. You can tell for certain you've never listened to JP as he regularly mentions these issues and more.

Doona · 21/03/2021 20:58

And he's not advocating that people should walk away from their responsibilities is he

No, he's saying we should be responsible. Also, that we should only spend time with people who have our best interests at heart. Sometimes (quite often for women) it's impossible to do both, so how should we resolve this conflict when it exists? What does Peterson say about it?

Doona · 21/03/2021 21:01

Luckily I dont give two hoots if you dont respect me.

Good, because I shouldn't have said about not respecting people. It's not true anyway. I was thinking about a specific man who walked out on his partner and baby because he wasn't "having fun any more". I don't respect him much. But at other times, it's complex and people need to take care of themselves and walk away from bad situations. So it was a thoughtless thing to say and I'm sorry.

Erkrie · 21/03/2021 21:12

Sometimes (quite often for women) it's impossible to do both, so how should we resolve this conflict when it exists? What does Peterson say about it

It is possible to do both. Surround yourself with people you like as best you can, who have your best interests, whilst meeting your responsibilities, as best you can. But go and research JP if you want to know more about him and his ideas.

Erkrie · 21/03/2021 21:18

Well I dunno when I can hunt it down but so I'm ready, is that it, a lobster analogy? Or is there more arbitrarily linked stuff?

This is the idea behind the lobsters, I have cut and paste from above as I couldn't be bothered to write it out again.

Lobsters: from an evolutionary perspective, animal species organising themselves in hierarchies where some are higher up the social ladder than others, is a trait found in all animal species between us and lobsters on the evolutionary "family tree". Because our last common ancestor with lobsters was about 550 million years ago or more, that means that the origins of hierarchical behaviour go back even further. It's part of our genetic "program" and an inevitable part of human behaviour. The fact that we can question or even sidestep it in specific circumstances also speaks to our evolutionary history but we can't simply avoid it.

Im not aware of any human societies that don't have some form of hierarchical structure. JP uses lobsters to explain why.

Doona · 21/03/2021 21:19

But go and research JP if you want to know more about him and his ideas

He doesn't address the conflict, right?

Gurufloof · 21/03/2021 22:07

This is the idea behind the lobsters, I have cut and paste from above as I couldn't be bothered to write it out again

I'm quite a fan of JP but still I haven't heard this yet, I'm certain that as soon as I can I will.
So I am not a biologist or anything,,doesn't pretty much every species have a hierarchy? It seems JP has simply picked up on lobster as his go to because it's old? Older than humans? And of course if it's our nearest cousin if you like that's expedient
I think but again ianab hierarchy gives each species structure, worker ants, queen bee blah blah.
And just because we can see the hierarchy doesn't mean much if its embedded in our genes.
Tomorrow I shall fire up the YouTube and find it.

Erkrie · 21/03/2021 22:41

It seems JP has simply picked up on lobster as his go to because it's old? Older than humans?

He's just looking for an animal we are most distanced from in evolutionary terms that show the same kind of behaviour. That it is so entrenched, that to think we can just undo that, is pretty much impossible.

Of course we have evolved in intelligence where we can see the hierarchy that is there and try to do something about it. But there's always a fight for power. It's human nature. It's part of our coding. That won't change. The culture of grievance is starting to show a difference type of hierarchy now. As it means those can turn the tables in terms of wielding power. And that is something this section of MN is more than aware of.

JP is not for hierarchy or against hierarchy, he's just trying to explain why.

LibertyMole · 21/03/2021 23:16

I thought the point of the lobster was to pick the species least related to us and show that even in that species, position in the hierarchy is related to serotonin. The purpose of that point being that we should treat our bodies and our minds as if we are worthy of respect, for example in our posture. He uses basic counselling techniques but attempts to explain the reasons why they work, using examples from science, therapy, family life, society and myth so that the central themes are memorable.

For the poster discussing why spending time with people who want the best for you doesn’t work as a moral principle because it clashes with take responsibility, that is philosophy 101. Moral principles conflict with each other; it requires moral sensitivity to balance them. That is the case with all moral systems.

MuggleStudiesResearchProject · 21/03/2021 23:19

Wow, some very defensive posts from his fans.

Google Jordan Peterson Cultural Marxism if you've not heard of that link before, and also Google Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory. Also look up Jordan Peterson and enforced monogamy, and just 'arguments against Jordan Peterson' for a variety of alternate perspectives. I'm not saying everything he says is wrong or bad, or that I agree with everything his dissenters assert, but it does feel like some wider perspectives might be useful to some.

As to my perspective, I've read the blog, listened to his podcasts and appearances, and his big interviews. I haven't read all of 12 rules, though I've read a lot of interviews with him, and analyses of him. There's definitely a lot to agree with - the common sense angle - and a lot to be skeptical of, especially the right wing, Christian, misogynistic type ideology dressed up as fact and, whilst he has said he is not a Social Darwinist (Social Darwinism being widely discredited), he certainly alludes to similar notions repeatedly.

I don't think he's a friend to feminists. Any positives there are incidental to his message. He's undoubtedly aware of his influence with incel/MRA types and could certainly use that influence to make a bigger difference to help women if he chose to. Instead he spends more time dissing feminists and feminism, but of course often done whilst talking to so-called feminists to give the impression of support (my god, that femsplainers podcast!).

Erkrie · 22/03/2021 07:14

As he presents and endorses so many views, some basic common sense, some awful (antisemitic cultural Marxism for example) I'd love to know what exactly you're referring to

Can you reference where's he's anti-Semitic please?

He says cultural Marxism is taking over the universities. Amongst other things. Which clearly it is. He's not endorsing it at all. I'm really not sure what your point is here.

Erkrie · 22/03/2021 07:16

As to my perspective, I've read the blog, listened to his podcasts and appearances, and his big interviews.

You haven't. It's so obvious that you haven't.

Erkrie · 22/03/2021 07:20

What he's actually saying about communism is that it's taking over cultural channels. This is most apparent in universities.

MaMaLa321 · 22/03/2021 08:07

I, too, can't believe that muggle has actually read or listened to JP, from what they say. Perhaps done a bit of selective googling.

MaMaLa321 · 22/03/2021 08:08

And I would love to see evidence of antisemitism, because it isn't there.

Erkrie · 22/03/2021 08:27

Perhaps done a bit of selective googling.

Without a doubt.

Livinginthecity · 22/03/2021 08:46

Cultural Marxism is indeed taking over Universities both in the USA and the UK. Worth a read is the book by Helen Pluckrose and James Lindsay explaining all the various theories which now infest our cultural institutes and the workplace.

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