Jordan Peterson

[Wilsonwilson]

What do people make of him? Watched the triggernometry interview with him yesterday. I have previously seen bits and bobs of his but not taken much notice. In the interview he pointed out that out that his greatest criticism has been because he was lecturing people whilst being a benzo addict, tbh this was my criticism.

I don't know, to me he just seems disingenuous somehow, could be my bias like he says.

Disagree. They are generally more useful after they are influenced by JP. He seems to motivate them to actually DO something instead of sitting around and whining about the unfairness of life.

It's what they do after listening to him that concerns me. If you read accounts of, or listen to the young men who proport to be his fans, or disciples a few years ago, it's rather concerning the direction they're headed.

He doesn't think women should know their place. He sets out ideas of what would change toxic male behaviour in society as a philosophical debate. He's generally pretty respectful to women. Even Cathy Newman. Who didn't cover herself in glory on that interview at all.

He's not an ally.
There's a reason his writings and words attract MRAs, incels etc. He thinks women should know their place.

Very much so.
You put this much better than I did.

It's what they do after listening to him that concerns me

Such as?

@Hibari

Disagree. They are generally more useful after they are influenced by JP. He seems to motivate them to actually DO something instead of sitting around and whining about the unfairness of life.

It's what they do after listening to him that concerns me. If you read accounts of, or listen to the young men who proport to be his fans, or disciples a few years ago, it's rather concerning the direction they're headed.

What’s the direction? The handful of men I know IRL who have read his books and watched his YouTube have:

Started going back to the gym (this seems particularly popular), eating better, and one has gone back into school. They’ve seemed to have used their lockdown time better than me!

Anything that motivates people to improve themselves gets a positive in my estimation. Better than whining ......

I don’t think he is an ally to feminists. But I think he is an ally to individual women if that makes sense.

He seems to think that a lot of structures in society are what they are and that many women make choices which then results in a gender pay gap. Furthermore, he does not have a problem with that, he just observes it and believes that it may be the best choice for certain women. He accepts that there is a male dominated environment in many companies and governments and has no ambition to change that.

On the other hand, he seems passionate about empowering women to make the choices that are best for them. He also seems to have encouraged women to argue for higher pay, better opportunities and to be more assertive when competing with men.

I have not read JP extensively but one thing I have seen him criticised for is the belief that it is likely that behavioural differences between men and women are likely to be biologically as well as socially driven.

I can understand why feminists reject this so strongly, it's the first step on the path that says women should stay home in the kitchen and be nice, earth mothers etc. However he also argues that women are doing themselves no favours by trying to be the same as men when we need different protections.

I think he has a point here - c 90% of women become mothers, and yet we continue to treat motherhood like a personal choice where the individual pays the penalty, rather than seeing the class based picture. The fact is most women are very differently impacted by parenthood, and trying to pretend we aren't because some women can afford a litany of cleaners, nannies and other supports to get back to work ASAP does not negate the fact that this isn't possible for the majority.

I agree Molten. I would add that when he speaks about “women” it is the average woman and based on research he has read. He does talk about “the distribution” of certain traits.

I think he makes a lot of good points tbh. Whether or not he's everyone's cup of tea, I'm very glad he's around to counteract some of the other nonsense. The Cathy Newman interview, and the way he called her out re being offended, was great.

I thought the Cathy Newman interview was a wasted opportunity to be honest. I think there is a very interesting discussion to be had about his views and how they could intersect with feminism.

Unfortunately Cathy Newman tried to call him out on headlines and put words in his mouth that he never had said which didn’t make her come out that well (he clarified that he never said it, laughed at the presumption and referred to empirical research).

If she had been better prepared (I believe she is much better than she came across) she could have tweaked the questions and had a thought provoking discussion.

@Erkrie

It's what they do after listening to him that concerns me

Such as?

Following populist grifters.

I honestly thought he'd gone away after his 15 minutes of fame were up and his life (very understandably given what he had to go through with his wife and his addiction issues) went off the rails.

The Helen Lewis article linked to is excellent and not hateful at all, just objective. I think he's good on men but poor on women and I do wonder if he doesn't meet that many women. Agree his daughter seems to love following mad diet crazes and he maybe doesn't have many calm objective female friends who he regards as equal so maybe believes all women are like those in his family.
His addiction was sad but the way he and his family dealt with it was very odd.
I like his personal responsibility ethos but do feel he and his family tried hard to say he wasn't just another benzo addict thus going against this principle.

Following populist grifters.

Like who?

@Fucket

From what I have heard him say is that men need to grow up, “tidy their room” and act like the man they wished their fathers were. Stop talking about their rights but act on their responsibilities to yourself and others. To do so will give men meaning in life, some of the comments you read on YT from men thanking him from saving them from spiralling further into hatred has convinced me he is not all bad.

He seems very culturally conservative and has taken a lot of flak for his freedom of speech and pointing out the narcissistic behaviours in some TWAW.

He also is a big fan of equality of opportunity over equality of outcome. I don’t necessarily agree with all he says.

I actually liked some of his bible lectures explaining the psychology of the Old Testament. How these books are metaphors etc, explaining them from a different POV I’d never even thought of. Again just to get a POV not to always agree with him.

He clearly has a large male following and very successful author. I believe he understands his own sex very well, I think he fairs less well understanding women. I don’t think of him as an ally Of feminism an i don’t think he does either.

I’m very wary of demonising someone because of their personal demons.

I completely agree with this. I liked his lectures and the bringing in of a Jungian-type understanding.

I don't think that he's a feminist ally, nor would he claim to be. His interview with Helen Lewis was really interesting to watch. I was routing for Helen, there's clearly a lot of disagreement, but also some areas of agreement.

An earlier pp spoke about him having schizophrenia and BPD. I don't think that there is any evidence of this, benzo addiction and depression following his wife's illness (kind of reminds me of the TV character "House"). But even if he had had psychosis- so what? I wouldn't disregard his ideas sinply because of this. Lots of people who I enjoy listening to the points of view of have had psychosis eg. Steven Fry had been hospitalised in the past.

Following populist grifters.

Come on, please. "After listening to this person, they go on to listen to different people"?

And that's what you're concerned about?

Come on, there must be more. You said:

If you read accounts of, or listen to the young men who proport to be his fans, or disciples a few years ago, it's rather concerning the direction they're headed.

Give me one of these accounts to read. Please. I want to believe the frothing critics of people like Peterson have something to justify their vitriol, but I can never find it. It's like mist.

I really don't want to believe that people can be so disingenuous, but my faith in humanity is constantly shaken :(

@Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud

Yes - there is evidence of his schizophrenia and BPD - from the recent interview I posted he reveals his diagnoses and his coma in a Russian hospital.

[quote oohmamama]@Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud

Yes - there is evidence of his schizophrenia and BPD - from the recent interview I posted he reveals his diagnoses and his coma in a Russian hospital.[/quote]
Ah - I couldn't get past the pay wall. Again, I wouldn't disregard someone's ideas based on having a vulnerability to mental illness. Not saying I agree with him on everything (more on the side of Helen Lewis in the interview above, I don't think that he is a feminist ally)

@NecessaryScene1

Following populist grifters.

Come on, please. "After listening to this person, they go on to listen to different people"?

And that's what you're concerned about?

Come on, there must be more. You said:

If you read accounts of, or listen to the young men who proport to be his fans, or disciples a few years ago, it's rather concerning the direction they're headed.

Give me one of these accounts to read. Please. I want to believe the frothing critics of people like Peterson have something to justify their vitriol, but I can never find it. It's like mist.

I really don't want to believe that people can be so disingenuous, but my faith in humanity is constantly shaken :(

We're talking from literal years ago when he hit his height of fame for that stuff. I don't have tweets or whatever from 2018 on hand.

A lot of "cultural marxism" talk and "owning the feminist SJW" stuff from what I remember.
Here's a Guardian piece about him from around that time,
www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/how-dangerous-is-jordan-b-peterson-the-rightwing-professor-who-hit-a-hornets-nest

More recently, one of the things he did with his fame was have dinner with Viktor Orban. If you don't know that name, I suggest doing some quick research on European politics.
When someone seems like they may be shady, looking at the company they choose to keep is often rather telling.

He makes a lot of loudly voiced, strong assertions, and once in a while something he says rings true.

However, for a clinical psychologist, he seems to be a terrible listener!

I have read the diagnosis of schizophrenia has been refuted.

thepostmillennial.com/breaking-media-falsely-accuses-jordan-peterson-of-having-schizophrenia

[quote Xoxoxoxoxoxox]I have read the diagnosis of schizophrenia has been refuted.

thepostmillennial.com/breaking-media-falsely-accuses-jordan-peterson-of-having-schizophrenia[/quote]
Interesting. Either way, I have met some wonderful people who have had psychosis, recovered, and made amazing contributions to improve the lives of others and so I don't like it being used as a way of slurring someone as a person.

Here's a Guardian piece about him from around that time

That article was an absolute biased car crash, as was the Cathy Newman discussion. She was ill prepared, went in with a pre conceived idea of what she thought he was, built on sound bites that people posted up about JP, without the bigger picture, in order to discredit him and beat him from a feminist perspective. She should have spent more time researching him. I suspect she knows that herself now. I have sat through stacks of his lectures and debates, I get that it's not everyone's cup of teas, it's long, arduous, and sometimes not that interesting. But if you're not prepared to do that, then don't simply make a judgement on someone designed to discredit them, based on a series of clips / sound bites that are designed to make them to appear as In a certain way. Without actually knowing / understanding the bigger picture of the debate they are having. And yes, dinner with Viktor Orban to discuss the dangers of PC /woke culture. So what? It's not company he keeps is it. Again, another sound bite. If we want to learn and understand we must be prepared to have conversations with all sorts of people, even people we disagree with.

[quote Xoxoxoxoxoxox]I don't agree on all his religious views but was a really good advoccate of free speech in 2016 in Canada, when prefered pronouns and TRA took over the campuses there:

[/quote] These videos are good- thank you

To be honest I prefer him, who doesn't profess to speak for women, to the beardy woke bros pretending to be feminists lecturing women on how sex work is liberating etc etc

Just re-pasting this link again (posted by an earlier pp) having listened to it. The professor of trans studies states as their first statement that "there is no such thing as biological sex"!!!

I wonder if there was a furious back-pedal after that to say that "noone was denying biology"