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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jordan Peterson

283 replies

Wilsonwilson · 15/03/2021 02:10

What do people make of him? Watched the triggernometry interview with him yesterday. I have previously seen bits and bobs of his but not taken much notice. In the interview he pointed out that out that his greatest criticism has been because he was lecturing people whilst being a benzo addict, tbh this was my criticism.

I don't know, to me he just seems disingenuous somehow, could be my bias like he says.

OP posts:
LibertyMole · 24/03/2021 13:15

I don’t recall Peterson saying any of this protector stuff. I’m just reading his new book at the moment, have just finished the relationship chapter, and he doesn’t give different advice for men and women.

I am not saying he has never said this, just it isn’t part of his central message on how people should conduct themselves in relationships.

FWIW, I am not interested in a physical protector or someone who wouldn’t be at risk of mental health problems if both his wife and child were undergoing serious medical interventions.

I do however want someone who is responsible, committed to family life and has a sense of dignity, meaning and purpose in life. Well actually I don’t; I am happy being single now. But that is what I would look for in a partner, and what I would want for my kids in their future partners.

lazylinguist · 24/03/2021 13:21

Masculinity has been trounced in recent decades - men have no idea what is expected of them. But then go on any Relationships thread and a man who isn't paying his way, isn't pulling his weight, doesn't have a good job is pulled to shreds.

Do you really think a man has to be a 'strong masculine type' to have a good job and pull his weight around the house and with looking after the children? Those attributes don't sound especially macho to me! For a start, many women have good jobs and more than pull their weight around the house without having to be masculine.

As for the 'men have no idea what is expected of them' line... surely it's not that difficult to work out.Treat women as equals, don't be an arsehole, and do your fair share.

SmokedDuck · 24/03/2021 13:38

@NecessaryScene1

the majority of comments BTL were roundly criticising nonsense articles and the Guardian didn't like it. Solution? Ban commenting

Ah, a fellow refugee. Off-topic diversion...

Happy days, eh? I was quite prolific on CiF. I remember posting some long heartfelt "what are you doing?" essays under the simpering "oh my, what can we do about trolling?" pieces.

Was certainly an omen of things to come, wasn't it? Angry

(Yes, there was a fair amount of CiF pushback on certain writers, and that did probably disproportionately hit women, due to the Valenti contingent. The fact that this could then be dismissed as "sexist trolling" rather put me off "feminism" for a while, if you were just going to play it as an identity card to shield your chosen idiots from criticism).

Oh my gosh, me too.

I remember how many comments there were about the awful way Laura Bates articles used comments from her Twitter followers to say things like "x is an increasing problem" or would use anecdotes from random unknown people as evidence of thing she felt were indicative of everyday sexism.

Quite a few regular commenters said, "look, I don't troll these articles, I want them to be held to some kind of standard for good writing and journalism and I point out where they fail. If you want better comments publish better stuff or get an editor involved."

It was the first thing that woke me up to how out of touch their editors were.

BabyItsAWildWorld · 24/03/2021 13:42

He uses the word 'competent' alot about men and that being what women want.
Which seems fair, I guess we all want people who are competent in the role they are being asked to take on whether it is bring the money in, feed the kids, fix the roof, change a nappy, support me when I'm ill, or protect me from an intruder.
He seems to be talking about the MN 'cocklodger' phenomenom I think.

I guess the range of things we expect men to be competent in now has broadened, and non of them are exclusive to men, so a distinctive role is not defined as it once was.

There are too many men around though who are just not competent in any/most of those roles, and women are now often in a position of having to take on all those roles themselves.
Often instead of equality we've now got women with more pressure and tasks that fall to them.

There are studies which show clearly that a lot of women say that if they could afford to, they would make the choice to stay at home more with thier children.
NB: NOT studies which say women should, but that they'd want to if it was a choice.

When feminists refuse to discuss that there is a biological basis for different choices and roles, and insist everything should be equal in roles between meneand women, we end up here.

And when a man, such as JP says: men stop being useless, have a family, be responsible and selfless, feminists still complain.

JP doesn't say how everyone should do this. Everyone should be free to have the same opportunity and make choices. He just says women and men make different choices because of thier reproductive roles and biology, and many women want capable men who will step up and support them in creating those families. In the way they decide.

It's not prescriptive. It's more: work it out and step up.

hamstersarse · 24/03/2021 14:36

As for the 'men have no idea what is expected of them' line... surely it's not that difficult to work out.Treat women as equals, don't be an arsehole, and do your fair share.

If you think that is enough to bring up competent men then you are very naive. I have two young men and I can tell you that it is not enough, it just scratches the surface to say "don't be a dick". Incredibly basic.

As the whole trans debate has helpfully pointed out, men are not women. And masculinity requires some direction. JP has offered that for young men because they needed it, and his message is a good one - take responsibility and clean your room!

hamstersarse · 24/03/2021 14:43

And when a man, such as JP says: men stop being useless, have a family, be responsible and selfless, feminists still complain.

That is why feminism no longer appeals to me. I am old, was part of original rad fem movements, but too mahy things just shout of dogma and fixed ideology in the current feminism. A single lens on everything and a blank slate approach to sex based around social constructivism that just doesn't stack up to the facts.

I genuinely find JP more appealing from a feminist stance than the Guardianesque feminist writers

SmokedDuck · 24/03/2021 14:46

I wouldn't have thought it was controversial that there are a lot of mixed messages for young men about how they are supposed to behave. Different than the mixed messages women get.

2late2fixate · 24/03/2021 16:49

@hamstersarse

And when a man, such as JP says: men stop being useless, have a family, be responsible and selfless, feminists still complain.

That is why feminism no longer appeals to me. I am old, was part of original rad fem movements, but too mahy things just shout of dogma and fixed ideology in the current feminism. A single lens on everything and a blank slate approach to sex based around social constructivism that just doesn't stack up to the facts.

I genuinely find JP more appealing from a feminist stance than the Guardianesque feminist writers

Ditto.

Student133 · 24/03/2021 17:22

So I'm a young bloke in my 20s, and though I wouldn't say I'm a 'fan' of Jordan, I have watched a lot of his content online and so I think I have a pretty good view of him.

First off, though he is now quite a controversial political figure, the vast majority of his content on his channel was psychology lectures made before he gained prominence from the c16 affair, where he took a stand against the Canadian government trying to mandate speech. As such most of the stuff he talks about doesn't actually have anything to do with trans or women at all, instead it's lots of jungian critiques, which you can take or leave. A point to not is that on YouTube, 3rd parties take a clip and title it 'SJW OWNED' or something to that end to get clicks, and often has nothing to do with the actual content. As far as I'm aware, of the content Peterson himself puts out, he normally doesn't do this.

On the accusation of him being some sort of alt right hate figure, this is complete tosh, and if you think this I seriously doubt you either know what the alt right actually is, or whether you even read it. Peterson talks lots from the perspective of a clinical psychologist, with hours of content around depression and other mental health issues at length. I can personally say that he has done more in helping me overcome my mental illness than the NHS has, and I've little doubt that many people didn't kill themselves because of him, so for that I'm personally extremely grateful. Also some posters seem to have the rather odd view that a psychologist cannot be mentally ill, which is daft, as we wouldn't say the same about an oncologist developing cancer, maybe have a think why you have this opinion if it applies to you.

Politically he tends to follow a classic Liberal view, and of course talks about personal responsibility a lot, which is very useful especially if you lack.good role models. Though you may think that policy is also required via social works, I struggle to see how encouraging personal responsibility is bad for anybody, regardless of age. I think a lot of this came about due to his academic work around extreme political systems based around collectivist ideals. This means he dislikes both communism and fascism, which I certainly agree with! This is where I struggle when people claim he is an alt right figure- he specifically argues against white nationalists, so I can't honestly see what people are talking about!

Empressofthemundane · 24/03/2021 18:47

I think this is a very good summation @Student133

I think the people moaning about him don’t care what he had actually said, they just want a foil for expressing their own views.

Doona · 24/03/2021 18:59

they just want a foil for expressing their own views

God forbid! Luckily, there are a bunch of men here to set us straight.

MrsMidClegs · 24/03/2021 19:01

@hamstersarse

And when a man, such as JP says: men stop being useless, have a family, be responsible and selfless, feminists still complain.

That is why feminism no longer appeals to me. I am old, was part of original rad fem movements, but too mahy things just shout of dogma and fixed ideology in the current feminism. A single lens on everything and a blank slate approach to sex based around social constructivism that just doesn't stack up to the facts.

I genuinely find JP more appealing from a feminist stance than the Guardianesque feminist writers

I think the Guardian version of feminism isn't the type you'll find much here, as their version is anything BUT feminism.
Erkrie · 24/03/2021 19:05

God forbid! Luckily, there are a bunch of men here to set us straight.

I wouldn't assume that everyone that disagrees with you here is male.

MissBarbary · 24/03/2021 19:19

@Doona

they just want a foil for expressing their own views

God forbid! Luckily, there are a bunch of men here to set us straight.

What a silly comment.
Doona · 24/03/2021 19:22

What a silly comment

Why? It's the feminist board, and women are being criticised for expressing their views, and a man is being praised for setting us straight.

Doona · 24/03/2021 19:23

And I'm being called "silly" for pointing that out? Hmm

SmokedDuck · 24/03/2021 19:25

@Doona

What a silly comment

Why? It's the feminist board, and women are being criticised for expressing their views, and a man is being praised for setting us straight.

Lot's of women have said very similar things already. No surprise someone agreed with a man who said something similar.

Men are allowed to post and some make very interesting comments.

Erkrie · 24/03/2021 19:28

Why? It's the feminist board, and women are being criticised for expressing their views, and a man is being praised for setting us straight.

What a bizarre comment. Women here also hold the same views, but as soon as a male posts saying similar things he's accused of setting you straight? Seriously? There are no words...

Student133 · 24/03/2021 19:49

All i would say is that I know plenty of men who think he is some sort of alt right spawn of Satan, whereas I think middle aged Canadian physcology professor who is vaguely Conservative and happened to be at a certain place saying certain things at a certain time, is more accurate. Though he may not directly agree with a lot of sentiments on MN, especially when it comes to intersectionality etc, he has spent a very successful career in his clinical work going about this, so even if you don't agree with the outcome, I do think there is some value. I just think it's better to accurately describe a set of ideas rather than creating a monster which isn't actually there.

EarthSight · 24/03/2021 20:24

@Fucket

Sorry posted too soon...

His drug addiction is a personal matter, and the same with anyone really, people are allowed to have personal demons it doesn’t make them less of a person.

It’s not a stick with which we should beat anyone with. On the flip side it doesn’t make a person brave or stunning just because they have/had addiction issues. As long as he doesn’t seek to capitalise on it then let him sort it out alone. But maybe he has tried to capitalise on it, I haven’t really looked him up in a while so don’t know.

@fucket Yes, he suffered from side effects or addition to this drugs, but the framing of this as a 'drug addiction' by the press was clearly meant to be salacious at best and slanderous at worst. When most people hear 'drug addict' they think of coke-heads or crystal meth users and the social stigma that comes with having such an addiction. Framing it as it as 'drug addiction' by the press without obvious clarification was clearly meant either to gather clicks or to tarnish his reputation.

I knew of the class of medical drugs he was on before he suffered the consequences of taking them. Benzodiazepines are prescribed for insomnia and anxiety and I'd heard that coming off them could be hellish, even life threatening in some cases.

EarthSight · 24/03/2021 20:24

Addiction*

EarthSight · 24/03/2021 20:37

@Student133 This is a rather unusual place for a youngish male to be. What drew you here?

I really don't agree with some of what Peterson believes to be true, but when I read up on him, I was surprised by how uncontroversial he was....as in 'meh'....is that it?? There are many conservative, traditional religious men out there from various cultures. We all can find out roughly what they believe in because they mostly follow scriptures, yet no one really finds this shocking,. We're supposed to value or respect religious freedom......yet people get really riled up over Jordan Peterson??? It's clear that he's a deeply spiritual or religious man, following Christianity mostly but not a church goer. Almost every video or lecture has many mentions of Biblical stories and he seems heavily invested in what he sees as the wisdom in Judeo-Christian mythology, and I think he may have an entire series of vidoes on this topic.

I think the reason why some behave as if they are utterly shocked is because he's a white Canadian working in an academic setting where it seems that people are supposed to follow a certain line of belief or thinking and if you don't then everyone loses the plot.

LibertyMole · 24/03/2021 20:50

He’s not religious. He’s been very clear he’s not a Christian. There was a YouTube video of him and Bishop Barron meeting and discussing his beliefs.

He draws on all kinds of mythology - ancient Egyptian for example. His focus on Christianity and Judaism is more to do with his investment in the traditions of the West. That is where he is conservative. He’s not particularly conservative on economic issues.

LibertyMole · 24/03/2021 20:57

It’s kind of weird that we have had this whole long thread discussing how he isn’t an anti-Semite, a misogynist etc because there is so much rumour mongering.

And as Earth says, he is very uncontroversial. But I think we have got to the point where an academic talking about what the purpose and meaning of our lives is, as if that is an important question, has become in itself an offensive act.

And the mud slinging that happens around him is because people are disturbed by it.

Erkrie · 24/03/2021 21:01

And the mud slinging that happens around him is because people are disturbed by it.

I agree that there's some truth in that.

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