Jordan Peterson

[Wilsonwilson]

What do people make of him? Watched the triggernometry interview with him yesterday. I have previously seen bits and bobs of his but not taken much notice. In the interview he pointed out that out that his greatest criticism has been because he was lecturing people whilst being a benzo addict, tbh this was my criticism.

I don't know, to me he just seems disingenuous somehow, could be my bias like he says.

I began to admire him after watching how he handled a TRA invasion of his lecture on campus. It was a long time ago, and i may have misremembered, but he was very calm, simply asking his students to pay attention to the dynamics of the situation and consider the implications.

Just watched the whole video- Jordan was a prophet (for eg.-my insertion- How it's hard now to even talk about female fear of male pattern violence):

"Words are tools" "the thing about free speech is.. it's freedom to engage in the process to formulate the problems in our society, to generate solutions and reach a consensus. It's actually a mechanism, not another value. You should put constraints on free speech with extreme caution because you interfere with the ability to think and communicate"

..So if you are forced to use the term "trans-woman" rather than "trans-identified " it makes it harder to talk about safety in prisons or fairness in sports

Indeed. Whatever his other drums, the free speech angle is clear and unambiguous.

@Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud

No one has disregarded his ideas based on having a vulnerability to mental illness.

However, it is perhaps some evidence that his theories are not supporting good mental health.

However, it is perhaps some evidence that his theories are not supporting good mental health.

Why?

I googled the advice from his first book. Seems pretty evidenced based stuff. Would you have a therapist who was currently actively unwell with a depression and addiction? Probably no. But would you have a therapist who has developed an addiction and got through it? I would. Would I choose to have an obese personal fitness trainer? No. If someone was a personal trainer, went through personal circumstances and got obese, does that mean that the training that they taught before was useless? No. Would I have a personal trainer who had been obese and then got healthy again? Definitely yes.

I don't know what my personal limits are, but everyone has a certain amount of pressure that they can tolerate before they become unwell. From looking at it he reached his. I don't think that he's ever claimed to know all the answers or do things perfectly.

Anyway, what am I doing? Team Helen Lewis!

I don't know what my personal limits are, but everyone has a certain amount of pressure that they can tolerate before they become unwell. From looking at it he reached his. I don't think that he's ever claimed to know all the answers or do things perfectly

Absolutely this.

Although I've just realised that the picture I found is not the 12 rules from his book and just a random list of 12 good things to do lol! This is why I shouldn't try and multitask with cleaning up my kids lunch!

This was his actual 12 rules:

"Stand up straight with your shoulders back"
"Treat yourself like you are someone you are responsible for helping"
"Make friends with people who want the best for you"
"Compare yourself with who you were yesterday, not with who someone else is today"
"Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them"
"Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world"
"Pursue what is meaningful (not what is expedient)"
"Tell the truth — or, at least, don’t lie"
"Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don’t"
"Be precise in your speech"
"Do not bother children when they are skate-boarding"
"Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street"
Now those seem pretty random- it makes me want to buy the book to find out more (but I'm still on team Helen)

Sounds like pretty reasonable ideas to me.

Hmm, hadn't actually seen the rules. I can see why the Woke/TRAs hate him. They really don't agree with 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9,10. Not sure about the cats or children.

Maybe because some ultra right winger once petted a cat, therefore petting cats is bad

Strikes me everyone should admire Jordan Peterson. Because he’s either a furiously intelligent human being striving with painful intensity after the truth

(not his truth or my truth or yours - just the truth)

or he’s one of the finest and most consistent actors the world has ever seen.

I go for a).

Hmm, hadn't actually seen the rules. I can see why the Woke/TRAs hate him. They really don't agree with 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9,10. Not sure about the cats or children.

Yes. Personally responsibility isn't a priority for some groups of people, that's for sure.

(not his truth or my truth or yours - just the truth)

Exactly this.

Woolofbat I don't think I watched that properly the first time, thanks.

I actually think he talks about how stereotypes and biological processes (desire and ability to have a child) affect women free on the POV of the gender pay gap. Stereotypes from the POV of how we have many discussions here about imposter syndrome as women and being apologetic (see the Inner Beryl threads.)

I think Cathy was actually talking initally about the bbc re the pay gap, which was evident and true. He was casting a wider lens on many different factors that lead to the gender pay gap, as well as pure sexism. 18 more on top of that including how women are affected by stereotypes.

Interestingly I see similar arguments from radical feminism, or certainly the feminism on FWR. Possibly women's Lib? Some of what he says reminds me of Germain Greer.

I loved the way she grilled him and the way he grilled her, and he had a great point about her lack of agreeableness potentially helping her to get to the top.

He's right also that some professions are dominated by women, certainly primary school teaching is.

I don't fully agree with everything he says but I do like that he mashes psychology and social history.

However, when you read the thread at the top of the page currently, by pregnant and screwed, you do realise there is real sexism at play.

He needs to spend more time listening to women of different socio-economic backgrounds and cultures

I do agree with this.

It's interesting that he says he has spent time coaching women for the work place too.

The thing is that the patriarchy, the pink effect, toys, stereotypes etc, does exist still and does keep some women from being able to go far.

Eg the number of girls taking stem and IT a levels compared to boys; it starts early.

Which he hasn't fully acknowledged.

He also mentions assertiveness training for women, which I had a little of via cbt and elsewhere. And I do think it's something more women than men seem to need support with. Not all though.

It's also clear that he's very good at being assertive himself.

I find it dispiriting how many people criticise him without bothering to see what he actually says. A lot of the anti-comments seem to come from this.

He says a lot of interesting things .

FWIW I enjoy his videos and interviews but find his books unreadable - he really needs a good editor.

This is a beautifully written and balanced review of his latest book.
www.ft.com/content/a060f834-428d-49e2-83b1-99a2e016a93d

Sorry - it's behind a paywall. The other reviews I read seem to be written by journalists who decide in advance that they hate him and write a corresponding review.

Ended up stumbling over / listening to this while doing laundry shit this afternoon, it's a great discussion. They agree on a number of things and disagree on others, and she much better prepared than Newman.

It's great to hear both POV, Helen's I align with and recognise better but he has a number of extremely pertinent points which do add to discussions around feminism and the backlash against it.

He talks about patriarchy as a political structure; i think some feminists see it more as a social force and I wonder if social sexism or plain old misogyny is a better term which he doesn't seem to recognise as a factor in all this, (but I don't know.)

What's really striking are the comments under it. Absolutely horrific about Helen. Pure misogyny. She notes that at a talk, the bits people cheered and clapped are the vox pox they see as affirming alt right views.

I don't think a lot of the alt right people who love him fully understand what he's talking about.

Not finished it yet mind.

Does point out that we need to get a balance in universities re extreme left as today's 20 year olds will be the future's 40-50 year olds.

What's really striking are the comments under it. Absolutely horrific about Helen. Pure misogyny.

Yes. That is notable - some of his following are extremely unpleasant.

But I'm happy that those people are listening to Jordan Peterson. Maybe some of it will sink in! And I think for a lot it has - you're seeing the "works in progress".

He's clearly reaching a target audience that others struggle to.

When I see people attack Peterson on the basis of that audience, I struggle to take it that seriously. At first glance you might think there's a problem with his message, if he's attracting that audience, but there doesn't seem to be. All the attacks have so little substance - they seem to be working backwards from the audience to assume causation from him.

And what's the alternative suggestion for dealing with these "deplorables", if self-help gurus aren't permitted for them? Do any of Jordan Peterson's detractors think they can do a better job of reforming them?

I was reading recently that this Daryl Davis guy who's famous for converting KKK members is now getting stick from antifa for being a white supremacist due to contacts with the KKK. Sigh.

(And I'm not a religious sort - but wasn't one of the reasons Jesus was so problematic was that he was palling around with all sorts of bad people? He'd be so cancelled this decade.)

I think he's a decent and thoughtful man with an unfortunately cultish following that leans towards misogyny.