Surrogacy again, why is the BBC selling this?

[WeRoarSometimes]

I am in despair again, at the so-called beliefs of some men and women, that they have a right to having a baby. And convincing a woman with vulnerability to do it.
I'm linking the Daily Mail story as this is the first search result when looking under Google.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9351973/Single-mother-23-says-gay-couples-surrogate-gave-life-new-meaning.html

This lady is 23 and a single parent already.

If we had to guess, she is likely to be much more vulnerable than two men, in terms of the power dynamic between the parties, in terms of access to money (power), in terms of her own responsibility to care and raise the child she already has.

It sounds as though she was vulnerable, feeling low, possibly low self-esteem after her relationship ended and she became a single mother.
This is predatory.

All her self-worth is tied up in them thinking that she is helping them out, by giving them her egg and carrying the baby during pregnancy.
She has clearly been groomed into thinking she is giving the child back to the original parents.

It's also very convenient to have a home birth in these circumstances.
No hospital team to question what is going on.

The first skin on skin contact is also with one of the chaps. They couldn't even let her hold the baby as soon as it was born.
Honestly, this makes me cross. No empathy or knowledge about what it can do to a child to remove them from their mother at birth.

These new surrogacy laws the law commission is working on will only go to erode protections for so many women who will be vulnerable through their economic status or family circumstances.

Steven
Lives in: UK
Did surrogacy in: Canada

"We were offered a package that would guarantee that we would have two kids — one genetic child for each one of us, which is really something that we wanted to have.
"The egg donor was from Canada. There was a huge Canadian database and we had a lot of choice. It was really clear what the features were of the egg donor, what her medical history was, and whether or not she was a known or unknown donor. Everything was clearly documented. I like to call it a Tinder for egg donors.
"The relationship with the surrogate didn't really stick to a business relationship — we call each other extended family. We are connected with her whole family — not just her, but also her kids and the in-laws. We still have frequent contact.
"Same goes for the egg donor. We are still in contact with the egg donor.
"We wanted to be ethical. We wanted to be able to convey the right message to our child about how he came to be."

Cedric
*Lives in: Belgium
Did surrogacy in: USA *

"My husband and I were 39 and 37 when we started looking into this. I work in a US company where I'm a member of an LGBT network. Several of my colleagues in the US had had kids and they recommended the clinic and the agency. That made the choice a bit easier. We had a pretty fast process. We started in November 2017 and our daughter was born in 2019.
"She was born four months early, at 24 weeks. It was quite complicated from a medical point of view, and we had to spend six months with her in hospital in the US. This raises the question that many people ask — about medical insurance. Also about planning for the unexpected. We were lucky that our jobs gave us six months off with pay, to go there, but that's not the case with everyone.
"We had significant issues on the insurance side. It could have been a very complicated process financially if we had not solved the insurance issue.
"Our daughter is totally fine now. She's two years old. She speaks French and English. She's walking, talking, and doing everything a normal kid does, despite this very tough start to her life.
"I think it's important to remain friends with the surrogate because one day your kid is going to ask about her. It would be nice for the child to meet that person. Our daughter will meet our first surrogate when we go to meet baby number two in August. And I hope that in 20 years we'll still be in touch.
"I would say: don't dream of making it the friendship of your life, but at the same time, pick someone who you are happy to have in your life."

Nick
Lives in: Australia
Did surrogacy in: Colombia

"I got interested in parenthood late in life, after my mum passed away. I'm 49, and I now have a 7-month-old daughter.
"As a single parent I had to think about cost. Canada and America were for me very expensive. Being single, Ukraine is knocked out — only married couples could go there. Colombia had just started up its program. It was a leap of faith.
"My ex-girlfriend was my donor. She'd donated her eggs before, and she'd intended to do it again before she turned 40, and it turned out it was for me. She was 39, but she was very fertile, she had a lot of eggs. I've still got two viable embryos in Colombia if I want to go back.
"My daughter was born last August. The Australian government gave me permission to leave the country, but Colombia's borders were closed. I tried everyone, but it took me six weeks to get into the country.
"It actually worked out really well. I was going to be a single guy going to Colombia. On the day of her birth, I would have been given a baby and told, 'Off you go!' What happened is the clinic actually provided me with someone to look after the baby until I got there. She and I still speak every day, even now, seven months later.
"She was amazing. I hired her to stay with me the first month. We actually travelled together. Once you've asked for the passport and you've done the DNA testing, you've got several weeks until your next appointment. There was nothing to do in Bogota, so we went off and sat on the beach.
"I was there two and a half months. We got a repatriation flight home on December 55_, and we were out of quarantine for Christmas."
These stories were edited and condensed.

Men shopping around for an affordable deal and claiming to be ethical.

"a package that would guarantee that we would have two kids — one genetic child for each one of us"

"She was born four months early, at 24 weeks. It was quite complicated from a medical point of view"

"Canada and America were for me very expensive. Being single, Ukraine is knocked out — only married couples could go there. Colombia had just started up its program."

Wait til the UK becomes the go to international destination. And if the baby is born at 24 weeks the NHS will pick up the tab, no need to worry about insurance. Suddenly that baby will be the baby of the surrogate mother , who, as a British citizen will be entitled to full, free NHS care for herself and her baby.

There’s a very interesting podcast series on BBC Sounds called Surrogacy: A Family Frontier

It’s presented by Dustin Lance Black (who is Tom Daley’s husband) and although they have a son of their own through surrogacy it does seem as if he is trying to be fair and raises many interesting points, both pros and cons. I started listening ‘on the fence’ but have now decided that it’s not OK. I think it was when he was explaining why they decided to go to America and why - just didn’t sit right with me although to be fair he does sound very considerate and caring.

I notice that it is mainly men presenting and leading the discussion about women in television programmes about surrogacy.

She was born four months early, at 24 weeks. It was quite complicated from a medical point of view

No shit Sherlock.

It would be nice for the child to meet that person.

Yes won't it be nice, being that she lived inside her and grew her from her bones for 9 months or in her case 6.

I like to call it a Tinder for egg donors.

I bet you do, I'm sure you both laugh at your superior humour over gin and tonics.

We wanted to be ethical.

I'm sure that's what you tell yourselves

What happened is the clinic actually provided me with someone to look after the baby until I got there.

Well that was lucky, being that a newborn needs 24 hour care and you don't live in the country.

Thanks for these accounts @FannyCann but this has made me so cross. Can you tell?!

I would like to have also heard from every woman who gave birth and every woman who provided her eggs. I understand that this was about the men but FGS.

Having a child to hand over to strange men in exchange for money is messed up.

The Family Frontier programmes that @Sixmonthson mentioned are on BBC sounds.

Here's a link to the first in the series.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p06ttwct

It was hearing one of these on the radio whilst driving home from work that alerted me to the Law Commission surrogacy consultation back in the tail end of 2018.

I haven't listened to them for a couple of years so can't remember all the detail Sixmonthson but I do recommend listening to them.

Dustin does come over as thoughtful and sympathetic but he is also very clear what he wants. He wants to bring California surrogacy law to the UK.

IIRC he occasionally gets a little rattled and bites his tongue when he's crossed - this is a carefully edited series to present an overall positive impression and set the stall for the law commission proposals. He is one of their "key influencers".

And I do recall he often talks about the California style laws keeping everyone "safe". By that he means the commissioning parents are safe in their guaranteed ownership of the baby.

He doesn't think about the physical safety of the surrogate mother.

And in common with the law commissioners he presents "safety" for the surrogate mother as meaning that they can be sure they won't be unexpectedly left holding the baby, the commissioning parents are contracted to take possession. But this isn't true. No one can force them to take a baby they don't want, and indeed it would be better that they don't.
The law commissioners briefly gave consideration to this possibility and concluded that (in the UK) social services would pick up the pieces and deal with the baby (eg arranging adoption) in the same way that they would for any other baby that was rejected by its parents at birth.

The fact is that it is more common for commissioning parents to renege on the deal, common reasons being relationship break up or the baby being imperfect than the other way around. No way do these laws keep the surrogate mother "safe".

@NotBadConsidering

Even IF you could be 100% certain that a woman is in no way vulnerable, being coerced, fully autonomous, fully altruistic, fully in control, and has absolutely 100% entered into the agreement in full understanding of the risks, it still creates two major problems:

1. a baby is being created to be traded like a commodity and

2. it artificially and falsely validates all of the scenarios that do not meet such stringent criteria, and paints a rosy picture of success that glosses over the huge amount of misery and exploitation that goes on in the surrogacy industry.

This sums up so beautifully my feelings on surrogacy. Vulnerable women, through poverty and/ or life experiences, will always be exploited by those who can.

The fact is that it is more common for commissioning parents to renege on the deal, common reasons being relationship break up or the baby being imperfect than the other way around.

This is really upsetting to think of.

Honestly, this makes me cross. No empathy or knowledge about what it can do to a child to remove them from their mother at birth.

What is your evidence for this? Not something you've got from a textbook, but evidence from your own experience?

And what about all the evidence that children removed from their mother at birth do fine? I know this from my own experience, not from a textbook.

I left a comment on a Facebook article about 'the surrogates' and mentioned the disgusting comment by the single man about not having 'access a womb'. The man himself replied to give me his self-pitying explanation of how he was just so sad and vulnerable. Nauseating.

I just started watching. Very disturbing. The way all those involved are talkinh. It's just so disattached from what they are doing - which is buying and selling babies, giving children away.

There's also a show on 4 about Co parenting, which seems to be the poor man's surrogacy for men.

There does seem to be an agenda to take away the role and importance of the mother and turn having children into something akin to getting a puppy.

I find all these people approach having a child from a very selfish place and they are not looking at what's best for the child. Just what they want and how they can get it.

Was that David Watkins @Juniper27 ?

The mother who made his pre-fertilised embryo into Miles was Faye. I felt really sad about all of the mothers but her words made me think there is something about her, I can't quite put my finger on it really, but something about her low self esteem that makes me worry for her a bit. How we patronising that sounds it's not meant that way. She has two young boys and a partner who seemed lovely, very supportive and completely adored her.

Good for you. However it is important generally for a baby to be with his or her mother for a while. They've only just come out of their mother and anything else is strange. Obviously if the poor mother dies that cannot happen, other than that there is no reason for a baby not to be held close by mother, then gradually introduced to others..

My biological mother never even saw me, I was taken away and put in the nursery on the ward, fed and cared for by staff, until it was time for the couple who adopted me to bring me home with them. That's how it was often done sixty and more years ago. It seems horrendous now.

Try reading 'The Primal Wound'.

*She has clearly been groomed into thinking she is giving the child back to the original parents.

Could you advise, specifically, what in the article suggests she has been "groomed"? Quite the word to use with no basis for doing so*

Maybe indicated by the fact that she believes she is not one of the 'original parents' when it is actually her biological baby who she carried? You really believe noone had to 'convince' her she wasn't the mum?

*It's also very convenient to have a home birth in these circumstances.
No hospital team to question what is going on.

What half decent care provider would be asking her probing questions anyway? Not every baby is born to a mum and a dad in an "ordinary" situation you know*

This one is born to a very young single mum, I imagine (hope) most HCP would make sure she is fully aware of what she is doing with this baby who is biologically hers.

*The first skin on skin contact is also with one of the chaps.

Just as it is for lots of babies for various reasons if mum can't be there after birth*

Except this mum was there.

*Honestly, this makes me cross. No empathy or knowledge about what it can do to a child to remove them from their mother at birth.

So what's your opinions on adoption*

Adoption happens once the baby is separated from its parents, it is not pre-meditated.

Just to be clear - I am not against surrogates. In this situation though is sounds like exploiting someone who is young, impressionable and could have been convinced because she needed the money.

Argh all my bold quotes failed

Just to reiterate the kennel clubs of uk and usa say it's bad for puppies to separate from their mothers before 8 weeks.... Early separation disrupts a puppy’s physiological and psychological development

breedingbusiness.com/when-can-puppies-be-without-their-mother/

What has it come to when our society puts the needs of newborn puppies (lovely and deserving of good treatment though they are) as more important than the needs of newborn humans? I really just don't get it.

The first skin on skin contact is also with one of the chaps. Just as it is for lots of babies for various reasons if mum can't be there after birth

It happens whether the mum is there or not but it's not really for the baby seeing as the only person the baby knows is the mother.

If the mother is being operated on obviously her life is the priority at that point.

A baby will not know the heartbeat or smell of anyone other than their mother. You can hand the baby to the biological father or anyone really, it doesn't matter, as for the baby they are a stranger.

@Juniper27

I left a comment on a Facebook article about 'the surrogates' and mentioned the disgusting comment by the single man about not having 'access a womb'. The man himself replied to give me his self-pitying explanation of how he was just so sad and vulnerable. Nauseating.

I tried to reply and show you some support but my comment was deleted? I think the replies to your comment are evidence of the Be Kind narrative being toxic. Be kind! Now be KIND! Aka shut up woman.

Surrogacy and drag, that's what the BBC pushes.

In fact, I'm surprised we haven't had a reality show about drag queens and surrogacy. The beards in the BBC's progressive programme promotion department can have that one for free.

Those lobbying for a US style laws for surrrogacy are wanting UK legal protections for pregnant women to be diluted even further.

The US laws do not offer envious protections to pregnant women.
Quite the opposite.

Female prison inmates in county/state prisons still give birth in restraints. (23 states have not banned it). Cufffed or shackled, in labour and no dignity.

Several states still ban abortion and will prosecute women and doctors involved in abortion.

New mothers are entitled to 12 weeks of maternity leave but have no statutory pay.
This only applies if you are working for a bigger company, I think it's more than 50 or 100 employees.

If your employer is a smaller organisation, there is no right under federal laws to maternity leave after childbirth. None whatsoever.
You've given birth to a baby and you have no rights to take any time off work.......

The U.S. is the only country in the OECD countries refusing to offer any paid maternity leave to new mothers. The OECD is a group of 37 developed and reasonably rich countries including Aus NZ, Turkey, European states and UK.

But yes, let's copy their laws because we all know who stands to gain.

Something didn’t sit right with me, with the single guy.

I'm not sure I want to know the answer to this - but what is to prevent paedophiles from buying a baby? Are there any checks at all?

A quick search on Google won't improve your day IloveJKRowling