Surrogacy again, why is the BBC selling this?

[WeRoarSometimes]

I am in despair again, at the so-called beliefs of some men and women, that they have a right to having a baby. And convincing a woman with vulnerability to do it.
I'm linking the Daily Mail story as this is the first search result when looking under Google.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9351973/Single-mother-23-says-gay-couples-surrogate-gave-life-new-meaning.html

This lady is 23 and a single parent already.

If we had to guess, she is likely to be much more vulnerable than two men, in terms of the power dynamic between the parties, in terms of access to money (power), in terms of her own responsibility to care and raise the child she already has.

It sounds as though she was vulnerable, feeling low, possibly low self-esteem after her relationship ended and she became a single mother.
This is predatory.

All her self-worth is tied up in them thinking that she is helping them out, by giving them her egg and carrying the baby during pregnancy.
She has clearly been groomed into thinking she is giving the child back to the original parents.

It's also very convenient to have a home birth in these circumstances.
No hospital team to question what is going on.

The first skin on skin contact is also with one of the chaps. They couldn't even let her hold the baby as soon as it was born.
Honestly, this makes me cross. No empathy or knowledge about what it can do to a child to remove them from their mother at birth.

These new surrogacy laws the law commission is working on will only go to erode protections for so many women who will be vulnerable through their economic status or family circumstances.

Even on this thread we see the child's experience of severation being minimised.

It's all about the wants and feelings of the adults commissioning a child and their delight at getting their baby. The baby as a person doesn't have an identity of their own, they were born to meet adult needs.

Adults who were adopted often talk and write about how hard it has been to grow up with the conflict of being so special they were wanted and chosen, and being resentful and angry that they were got in order to fill the hole in the adult's life and be the experience the adult craved. And that the adults' celebration (the 'gotcha' day celebration that used to be a thing before this was more talked about) of getting them is often a memory for them of loss and grief and a hole in their sense of identity.

Adoption at least values all the people in the situation with the child as a person front and centre.

I was the same @FannyCann - my 5 day old baby was still in the house though! Grandparents were having cuddles whilst I slept with the express instructions that the slightest cry he was to be brought to me immediately. I didn't sleep I just waited to hear him cry.

The mother I mention did the same with her second son and they have full time nannies who are regularly replaced so neither child has had a primary carer since birth. They also had night nannies.

It's hard to know how much a two week holiday affected them early on, in the scheme of things where they are largely ignored by both parents, but both boys are not well-adjusted children. I worry about them both.

The very idea of leaving a newborn like that makes me feel very very uncomfortable and I would say it was borderline neglect.

Adoption at least values all the people in the situation with the child as a person front and centre.

My thoughts exactly. I'm undecided if I'd like to see further regulation of surrogacy (where commissioning parents are to be assessed in the same way adopting parents are, before implantation or attempting pregnancy if it was up to me - I've read enough to see how some very evil people circumvent safeguarding by buying babies) as that may 'sanction' the process. I read and listen to a lot of surrogacy abolitionists and their argument always centres the baby, as do I.

When she spoke it sounded like she was looking more for a co-parenting relationship with the couple rather than to be a surrogate mother.

I haven't even seen the programme yet but this was plain from the various articles about her. Emma said her mother warned her against surrogacy but loves baby Mia now.

"But she absolutely adores Mia now.”

It sounds to me like she considered Mia as her baby and her mother, the grandmother and this implied that she imagines herself involved in her life as she grows up. She is also quoted saying she wants more children of her own.

Mia is now almost one year old so Kevin and Aki should have the parental order approved some months ago, so Emma will have relinquished any legal rights. Maybe they will all continue to be in touch and stay connected as Mia grows but if not there's nothing Emma and her mother can do about it.

Strangely DH mentioned he watched this last night and was appalled by it.

He was shocked at the way the gay men in it talked about women and the language they used.

It was something he hadn't seen before and found it alarming.

@WeRoarSometimes

Sure we could. But we're concerned about protecting women and babies. We want the law to increase protection to women and children.

Seconded. Surrogacy is the commodification of babies and women. Should be completely outlawed. I know of a male couple who have two sons from surrogacy, they happily told our mutual friend that they had chosen a specific country for surrogacy “because it was the cheapest”. This is a couple who boast about their charity work and use it to promote their business, yet also clearly feel fine about paying an impoverished woman in another country to give them a baby.

@RedToothBrush I agree. One of the men kept referring to how he didn’t have access to a womb as he was gay. The way he spoke actually sounded very sexist as it demeaned women as simply being child bearers. Wombs are not a commodity to be rented they are a small part of a human being that do not define our position in the world - at least that’s what we’ve been fighting for.

@RedToothBrush

Strangely DH mentioned he watched this last night and was appalled by it.

He was shocked at the way the gay men in it talked about women and the language they used.

It was something he hadn't seen before and found it alarming.

I felt quite a few people on the programme-the surrogates themselves, and the people at the social meet-ups-were doing their utmost to be totally "right-on" and super-tolerant. As if anything else would be desperately old-fashioned and almost certainly homophobic.

It was the focus on "This is my right" that really jarred. (Having a baby is no-one's right, gay or straight!) The social meet-ups really felt like women were being eyed up purely in terms of the wombs they could offer. Which, of course, they were, however much that is dressed up as "getting on with each other" or "finding X a really friendly person."

I did wonder how the single man could possibly cope with childcare AND having a full-time job as a teacher. And why he seemed to assume he would never have a partner.

I felt so sad watching this. All the surrogates seemed to be desperate to fit in/build a relationship by being a surrogate

Have just got round to watching the first episode.

Emma, the 23 year old does seem vulnerable. She talked about loneliness and depression. I think she hopes for gay best friends for ever, practically as one happy family. They have promised to continue to be male role models for her son, and to keep in contact of course.
Maybe they will and the relationships will be positive. If they swan off into the distance and drop her she will be, as she admitted, devastated. There is also the possibility of problems arising to upset the apple cart should she form a new relationship if they don't all get on.

The boss whose employee is having her baby is also problematic. She seemed nice, and thoughtful, and one can only sympathise with her poor obstetric history. But there are so many potential pitfalls for the relationship. She veers between extreme anxiety about the pregnancy to trying hard not to get excited or invest too much emotion in it as she has had such bitter disappointments before (a still birth, a miscarriage and a 20 week termination for abnormality). From the working relationship point of view she said it was a little complicated and she let things pass that previously she'd have picked up her employee for. Will that be the pattern for their future working relationship forever? They live on a small island, Jersey, so any falling out will be extremely difficult to contain.
The other thing that the employee surrogate mother highlighted is a consent issue. She was asked, on the day she was packing to go to the mainland for embryo transfer if she would back out at this point if she was having second thoughts. She said it would be an awful thing to do and she'd have to move away and disappear, so no. But this is what happened with the woman who wrote about her experience for Nordic Model Now. As she started seeing red flags and having misgivings, including about being impregnated with two embryos (the commissioning father said twins would be the icing on the cake), she felt that they had spent a lot of money on buying eggs and fertility treatment and were obviously highly emotionally invested as well as financially and she felt she couldn't back out at that point. So there comes a point, before the pregnancy even happens, where it becomes unintentionally coercive.

All those people who talk about her body, her choice - there's a point, before impregnation, when apparently that goes out of the window.

@BabyBee93

Its quite sad though isn't it 23 she could be anything but she chooses to be a broodmare.

Interesting choice of response on the feminism board. How is there anything sad about a woman exercising the right to her body autonomy? Is that punishable because that choice doesn't align with your views?

Great post. Completely agree. And I have yet to see what the horrible damage is to a child if adopted at birth by new parents......

@rvms I found the single gay man quite unlikeable. He seemed almost bitter that he had to go seeking a friendly relationship with a woman to get a baby.
Interestingly, whilst his mother was excited at the prospect of another grandchild, his sister was not supportive.

Despite some of the women offering surrogacy saying they felt they had some power once they were pregnant, I noticed all the women in the film had described previous self esteem, low income, loneliness or multiple other issues that made them seem highly vulnerable in their situation.

It was sad watching the women have such a kind of celebrated baby but for someone else and being so moved by someone else being attentive and kind to them. Some of the women seemed so moved in particular by seeing men being so emotionally committed and available and open to them.
It felt like the women didn’t really have any of that in their own lives- either when their own kids had arrived or in their own adult relationships.
But all of that validation and attention was at coming such a high emotional and physical risk to each woman which was totally unexplored. And the baby’s interests weren’t explored either. These were all success stories at least to the point of a healthy birth.

The series so far didn’t go in any depth into what happened after the birth and I notice that is a consistent feature of how surrogacy documentaries are made. They always conclude with the birth, happy parents, plus a happy but slightly wistful commentary from the woman.
It does seem that documentary makers avoid their ethical duty to show the full picture of how the relationships worked over time for everyone involved. The pregnancy and birth part is just the beginning.

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/25/surrogacy-sweden-ban?__twitter_impression=true

Yes! I agree @FannyCann and @ChattyLion - the low self esteem issue really stuck out for me, each surrogate mother seemed to be doing this for reason deeper than it first appeared.

Faye's husband clearly worshipped her but she said she had low self esteem and as a social worker, serving others and trying to meet their needs and help them made me wonder if it was somehow an extension of that and connected to how she saw her worth? She left her career and very briefly touched on some mental health issues. Her own children were very young and seemed happy to have another person in the family. It did seem likely that David would stay connected to the family but Faye said that she saw it as Baby Miles going home and his home was not with her (since he was now outside of her body, did she bond with him at all? She thought she might feel loss but post birth said she didn't, maybe not in that moment she didn't) and there seemed to be some separation there and that she had done her duty but at the end the titles said she was considering doing it again. As David sat in the birthing pool with the intact umbilical cord it was symbolic that even in his arms Baby Miles was still attached to Faye. I also wondered how David's arms might have been itching to have his son in them as Faye's family and parents came to see him and have a hold before they left. In the months that follow when it's all about your newborn I also wondered how many phones calls came in the middle of the night, asking for advice and whether Faye's sons will know Miles or 'Bob the Embryo' as they grow up. Maybe they will but life takes over. It would be good to revisit all the families in 5 years time.

Full time Mum, Jemma said she was addicted to surrogacy and she was definitely obsessed. Just two weeks after delivering her first surrogate born child, a baby her kids are related to, she was back at a matching events and champing at the bit to start all over again, frantically checking the app repeatedly when her 3 months period had passed, like a woman who was waiting for someone to swipe right on her profile. The commissioning parents of her first surrogate baby, Baby K were obviously wealthy as Jemma remarked on this but she didn't say how much she got paid. Her husband was a scaffolder so a one-income family with 3 kids, I find it difficult to believe that there isn't some motivation attributed to that though she said that wasn't it.

She clearly enjoyed recounting that birth at the matching event and described the experience like 'a high'. She was 33 so has a few more years to have more surrogate babies but what happens when you can't do it anymore? After 3 of her own and the 2 she gave away would she look at having a 6th, 7th, 8th pregnancy to keep getting her 'hit'. Her words about losing the stripper friends she used to party with after having a baby echoed a bit of what Faye said, though for me she seemed very bubbly and keen to be the centre of attention and again her validation was around her fertility and her baby making abilities, none of which lasts forever.

Maddie gave birth to a daughter and her immediate reaction seemed odd, like she wanted Alex and Rich to touch her first. She hesitated I think and was looking right at them for their reactions. She spoke of the guilt when she tried for months to get pregnant, mentioning how she felt she was leading them on during those 6 long months before their (unenforceable) contract period 'expired'. They had holidayed together so of the 3 in final episode they were the most likely to be more like an extended family but not in a co-parenting sense. As Maddie used her own eggs her daughter could grow to see any resemblance of herself in her mother.

At no point were the costs discussed, aside from the narrator saying from the opening titles how you in the UK you have to do it "for free", which isn't quite accurate, but I was pleased to see it was all pink fluff and some of the deeper issues were explored to a degree.

I'm watching DNA Family secrets with Stacey Dooley too so watching them together is really interesting, to see how the adopted or donor conceived adults try to figure out where they have come from and think about those surrogate-born babies doing the same in 20 years time.

[quote 334bu]amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/25/surrogacy-sweden-ban?__twitter_impression=true[/quote]
Wow! And they say you can't ban it...

"This week, Sweden took a firm stand against surrogacy. The governmental inquiry on surrogacy published its conclusions, which the parliament is expected to approve later this year. These include banning all surrogacy, commercial as well as altruistic, and taking steps to prevent citizens from going to clinics abroad."

I don’t really understand why she wanted to do this

Sometimes if you're depressed, if you're miserable and there seems to be no way out, you take a temporary reprieve even when it's clearly going to make things worse in the long term just for the short term relief.

It does seem that documentary makers avoid their ethical duty to show the full picture of how the relationships worked over time for everyone involved. The pregnancy and birth part is just the beginning. This - I doubt the women are quite so happy after they've been dropped like a used shoe.

Meanwhile even the kennel clubs of uk and usa say it's bad for puppies to separate from their mothers before 8 weeks.... breedingbusiness.com/when-can-puppies-be-without-their-mother/

But surely if you ban surrogacy it will just "go underground". It's not the solution

I do see your argument 2021 but if it went 'underground' wouldn't that constitute human trafficking and by having it 'above board' it is legalising human trafficking? I'm not being obtuse, I've genuinely been wondering myself in where I stand with regulation as I'm wondering if is sanctions the process and gives rise to it happening more. Basically saying it's ok as long as you're friends and don't pay, or in India saying, it's ok as long as you're infertile and you keep it in the family.

I'm wondering under what terms is it acceptable?

Most countries ban it completely and when people return from overseas with a baby in tow that isn't legally theirs the courts in say France and Germany give those adults a really hard time but as far as I can see no one asks them to give the baby back and no one goes to prison, but if the courts take a dim view it would certainly discourage people from doing it.

@2021hwg

But surely if you ban surrogacy it will just "go underground". It's not the solution

Much of the market for this is overseas.

Yes you could use fake documents but if you are trying to bring a child into this country you'd still need to provide documentation.

If you are adopting as a gay couple that would make surrogacy a lot more difficult to drive underground. It would quickly pop up at parents evening...

@MissBarbary

She said Knowing it's my egg, it won't be like that's my girl, because it's not my daughter

How can she possibly have come to that conclusion? The baby is her daughter in exactly the same way her son is. She seems to think of herself as a human incubator.

@missbarbary

I think it's so sad how anyone could not think of her as her daughter. I wonder if she will wake up in the middle of the night one day and realise that she is in fact very much her daughter, and as far as I'm aware, might not have any legal claim to reverse what's she's done. I can't imagine how this will psychologically affect a child. I guess time will tell.

We are more likely to think an outright ban on a practice will drive it underground and result in it becoming more difficult to regulate.

I think Sweden is taking a fair approach though.
Lawmakers have prioritised laws that support women and families such longer parental leave (for both parents), heavily subsidised childcare. Doesn't this help to promote women's standing and participation in society at a more equal level to that of men?

In the UK, the constant barrage of articles and celebrity lifestyle pieces is reducing women's worth to that of our organs.
Vulnerable women are being characterised by their willingness to carry a pregnancy and risk health for people with access to money.

I feel like I need a Staniland question.

I can't imagine how this will psychologically affect a child. I guess time will tell.

Surrogate born babies that go to single men and same-sex male couples basically don't have mothers.

The woman who has provided the egg doesn't consider herself the mother even though she is the genetic mother.

The surrogate mother considers herself an oven most of the time it seems and doesn't consider herself the mother despite being the birth and biological mother.

If the baby goes to a couple who are opposite sex then the baby has a social mother and a mother with legal parental responsibility, but if it's two men there isn't a social mother for the child.

That's not to say that all surrogate-born babies will miss their mothers, but I think it's possible and likely that many surrogate-born girls will grow up and get pregnant and want will begin to feel a loss if they have not felt it up until that point, which would be pretty traumatic particularly with the hormonal changes happening at the same time. The same would apply to boys, minus the hormones, who's partner is pregnant and they want to know more about where they came from.

Without starting a new campaign with mantras such as "mothers matter - all mothers matter", it is important to recognise that your DNA is part of you and who was pregnant with you gives you roots.

When I was pregnant I wanted to know more about what food my mum craved, or when she felt pain, if I kicked a lot. For children who don't know their mothers, adopted, fostered or surrogate born I imagine it's the same. It forms part of who we are. Even just a tiny bit.

I feel like I need a Staniland question.

Yes!

At what age is it ok to give away a child?

Is it ok to buy a baby? Can a baby be bought/sold?

Is a baby human and therefore has human rights?

@OhHolyJesus A good friend is adopted. She had a happy childhood, but her parents were older and have not been around to be grandparents. When she became pregnant she planned to go back to work after her maternity leave as most of us do. But when the baby was born she couldn't bear to be seperated or to entrust her to anyone else's care. She gave up work and was a SAHM. None of which matters, of course, but her mothering was hugely impacted by the feelings that burst to the surface about having been given away for adoption, in lots of ways. For instance, whilst I'd say she probably always had perfectionist tendencies (I didn't know her pre children) but her need to provide her children with the perfect childhood actually made their family life quite stressful. It hasn't been easy for her.

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Three men and their international surrogacies
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They travelled from the UK to Canada, from Belgium to the US, from Australia to Colombia. A few words about what it's like to do surrogacy these days.
One of the things assisted reproduction makes possible is families led exclusively by dads. If you're an entirely male household and you're not adopting, you will need both an egg donor and a surrogate. That means a significant commitment of money, time, planning and patience. And because many countries ban surrogacy for men, it also often means travelling great distances.
Below, I share the words of three dads describing their overseas surrogacies. Two of the dads are gay men in partnerships and one is a straight single man. They were speaking at a session put on by Growing Families, an organization based in Sydney, Australia.