Worried about independence under the SNP

[Wandawomble]

I’m worried about independence and the hate crime bill. I don’t want to be sealed off in a country that will punish women for defending their sex based rights.
What are others feeling? My DH keeps saying once Scotland gets independence the SNP and their hate crime bill will be out. I don’t believe this. Who to vote for?

I saw someone ask something on twitter which I think bears repeating here.

If it was men's rights in a similar capacity (other MNers will come up with good parallels to the situation for women) that were under threat, would he take the risk for independence?

Women's issues are always an afterthought. Something we'll deal with later, once we'll got the big issues sorted out. You'd think we were a tiny minority, and not 50% of the population, sometimes.

So, again, if it was his rights, the rights of your sons, brothers, and fathers, would you vote SNP and trust this could be put right once they were out?

If you would, that's fine. But if you wouldn't, why are you placing less value on yourself and other women than you do men?

@PotholeParadies

I saw someone ask something on twitter which I think bears repeating here.

If it was men's rights in a similar capacity (other MNers will come up with good parallels to the situation for women) that were under threat, would he take the risk for independence?

Women's issues are always an afterthought. Something we'll deal with later, once we'll got the big issues sorted out. You'd think we were a tiny minority, and not 50% of the population, sometimes.

So, again, if it was his rights, the rights of your sons, brothers, and fathers, would you vote SNP and trust this could be put right once they were out?

If you would, that's fine. But if you wouldn't, why are you placing less value on yourself and other women than you do men?

Nothing to add, but this is an excellent analogy, thanks

If the SNP get independence then they are the party in power setting up the structures of governance, the safeguards and reviewing of legislation - or not. They will been the main lead on writing any constitution. It won't simply be the hate crime bill that would need reviewing. Do you not think their attitude to women and fawning towards certain groups would be reflected in these new structures and founding documents? That the corruption of language would embedded? These things would not be so easy, and maybe not possible, to change.

If I were Scottish, I would not be voting for independence right now. When someone shows you who they are, believe them

Why? What are the SNP going to do?

@Morgan12

Why? What are the SNP going to do?

Build a hatred of women into the very basis of an independent Scotland. Destroy women's rights: the word 'woman' has already been changed once. They will do the same with the Equality Act if they adopt it or change it to gender. They will up the level of indoctrination of school children. (Remember this is the party which has undermined Scottish education and refuses to publish a review of the curriculum for education they commissioned in response to concerns until after the election).

I will absolutely be voting for independence. They are two separate issues. My hope would be that shortly after independence the SNP would eventually disband because so many of their politicians actually have differing values but are brought together by their desire for independence. If they then aligned themselves to other Scottish parties I think these would become far stronger and we would have a stronger government as a result, with opposition parties that are actually strong enough to hold whoever is in power to account. Even if the SNP didn't disband, after independence I believe they would become weaker as many would leave the party to join parties more aligned with their values. I'm prepared to fight foe women's rights

There is absolutely no way in any shape or form I will be voting for the SNP come May or any other election. I will be voting pro Union. (I was previously pro Independence and have voted SNP/Green in the past).

Can you imagine what this shower would do for us?

Women would be 2nd class citizens in an independent Scotland, and the majority of MSPs just don't seem to understand this nor care.

Oops, his post too soon. Was going to finish by saying that I'm prepared to fight for women's rights and independence. I want both.

@Tibtom

If the SNP get independence then they are the party in power setting up the structures of governance, the safeguards and reviewing of legislation - or not. They will been the main lead on writing any constitution. It won't simply be the hate crime bill that would need reviewing. Do you not think their attitude to women and fawning towards certain groups would be reflected in these new structures and founding documents? That the corruption of language would embedded? These things would not be so easy, and maybe not possible, to change.

Exactly this - I’ve seen lots of men (and anti-women women) urging people that everything can be sorted after independence, there’ll be a clean to slate to work with. However, as a bystander observing the actions of the SNP so far and noticing their apparent allergy to actual democracy and truth, I’m not sure how they will ever cede power to another group.

It is my impression that a large part of the push for independence is so that SNP can stay in charge of everything. Given their totalitarian approach and penchant for bending truth and rules to suit themselves I can’t see how democracy is suddenly going to flourish and benefit women. I’m not aware of any other significant parties that are in a position to advocate for women’s rights in Scotland so what would change under independence?

Especially as Humza is already making it illegal for women to advocate for their rights at all.

My hope would be that shortly after independence the SNP would eventually disband

Never. They are in this for the power. They are a mixed bag, alright, with wildly varying ability as well as values. Too many have latched onto the SNP because they see it as an easy way to make a political career. They'll never disband. They will say whatever it takes to get elected.

I'm not convinced many SNP politicians have political convictions beyond independence.

'Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship.' - 1984, current SNP policy apparently based on

Never. They are in this for the power. They are a mixed bag, alright, with wildly varying ability as well as values. Too many have latched onto the SNP because they see it as an easy way to make a political career. They'll never disband. They will say whatever it takes to get elected.

I actually think that they would stand a better chance of getting independence if they said that after gaining it they would disband. I know many many people who are torn because they want independence but hate SNP and don't want to vote for them.
I do think it would be a natural thing rather than a conscious decision though as politicians who have differing viewpoints naturally slip away to another party when they realise that the main thing keeping them with SNP has been achieved.

Women have a tendency to be self-sacrificing. I can see a lot of discussion on social media that boils down to 'I will put the country's interests first'.

Remember that women are 50% of the country, too. I know lots of women who would wonder whether it was their duty to put the country first for independence in this situation. However, when I think about my male friends, I think that if you asked them to make the same sacrifice, they would incline to the view that a country that required that sacrifice wasn't a country worth doing it for.

If you wouldn't expect men, or any other class of person, to do this, it is not a sacrifice for independence that women should make either.

I actually think that they would stand a better chance of getting independence if they said that after gaining it they would disband

Yes, indeed, and why do you think they have never so much as hinted that they would do this? Odd, really.

Why the fuck would we even want independence? What is being offered - the chance to live in a country where women must sit patiently while the government works out what we can call ourselves, how we can talk about men?

Sorry, OP, I am absolutely fuming after yesterday and none of my anger is directed at anybody here, just at the Scottish government.

My vote always puts women’s rights first, has done since I became a mother and I vote floatingly depending on women’s issues. I think a pp that said men would not be expected to put their rights to one side for a greater cause are right. We are 50% of the population

I've voted SNP for years but I'm seriously reconsidering that for the upcoming election. I'm not sure I can bring myself to vote for a party that condones the likes of Mhairi Black calling women "Jeremy Hunts" while also punishing women like Joanna Cherry for speaking out in support of sex based rights and making no public show of condemnation against the threats she has received.

I've always been concerned that the SNP are as wrong about independence and Scotland's future as an independent country as they have been about so many other things.

The crazy policies, especially those where they have been strongly advised to reconsider (particularly things like named person and gra) make me wonder what else, especially pertaining to independence, they've got wrong.

The involvement they seem to want in people's personal and home lives is mind boggling, along with the lack of will to hold their SNP MPs and sundry hangers on accountable and as ArabellaScott up thread observed, 1984 seems to be the reference book of choice.

The SNP are dead to me. I'm a no voter anyway but I've always respected NS as a politician and leader. But she's got her fingers in her ears on this issue and letting a bunch of first year uni students run riot in her party.

They'd be worse after independence. Their model of democracy is woke twitter, where everyone accuses everyone else of being a bigot and your credibility is built upon anonymous likes from teenagers in Ohio.

Get. To. Fuck.

Was going to vote SNP but not a chance in hell now. They've shown their true colours regarding women's rights in the hate crime bill.

Currently undecided. Only Tories and an independent responded to emails re the Hate Crime Bill. Don't know if I could ever bring myself to vote Tory.

I thought about spoiling the ballot paper but it seems pointless. Only a counter sees it, probably wouldn't even read it, and it's just binned. it's not as if someone reads the messages to see why ballots were spoiled.

Would love some kind of campaign to bring this issue more to the fore.

I usually vote SNP and I support independence, but not at any cost. I have enough self-respect to not listen when others (usually men) tell me I must go to the back of the queue and put everything and everyone else first before my rights and freedoms. Fuck that.

It's taken this for some of you to spot separatism is an idiotic, senseless idea based on nothing except some bizarre thought of "freedom" and imaginary grievances?

Nothing idiotic about the concept of self-determination. It's how most countries in the world function.