Worried about independence under the SNP

[Wandawomble]

I’m worried about independence and the hate crime bill. I don’t want to be sealed off in a country that will punish women for defending their sex based rights.
What are others feeling? My DH keeps saying once Scotland gets independence the SNP and their hate crime bill will be out. I don’t believe this. Who to vote for?

I can see a lot of discussion on social media that boils down to 'I will put the country's interests first'.

Then why on earth would you vote for separatism? Does anyone seriously think that's in the interests of Scotland?

@NonnyMouse1337

Nothing idiotic about the concept of self-determination. It's how most countries in the world function.

It's nonsense. There is no sensible reason for it.

Talking about "self determination" makes you (general you) sound ridiculous. People in Scotland are not oppressed and we are part of the UK.

"Self determination " makes as much sense as "self ID" except self ID will actually do considerably less damage.

@MorrisZapp

They'd be worse after independence. Their model of democracy is woke twitter, where everyone accuses everyone else of being a bigot and your credibility is built upon anonymous likes from teenagers in Ohio.

I think this is possibly the most true paragraph I've ever read on mumsnet!!

@NonnyMouse1337

I usually vote SNP and I support independence, but not at any cost. I have enough self-respect to not listen when others (usually men) tell me I must go to the back of the queue and put everything and everyone else first before my rights and freedoms. Fuck that.

This is exactly how I feel. I have no idea how I'm going to vote in May but I do know it won't be SNP.

It's nonsense. There is no sensible reason for it.

Pro independence and pro union stances are based more on emotion rather reason.

If a person has more feelings of attachment to the union, they will be less inclined to support the concept of Scotland being independent. If a person has less feelings of attachment to the union and a deeper attachment to Scotland being independent then they will naturally be supportive of an independence movement. It's not that difficult to understand. Humans have similar motivations even if their stances might be different.

And a country doesn't need to be 'oppressed' for many of its people to desire self-determination. It's a very human thing to want the seat of power and the ability to make decisions closer to where you are.
The irony is that the SNP is quite a centralised and authoritarian party, but again a desire for Scottish independence isn't tied to any specific party even though the SNP have often been the ones pushing for it.

There are plenty of good reasons to vote independence, fwiw. The EU being a rather large elephant in the room.

But not at the cost of women being erased.

ArabellaScott, can you name any possible reason for voting for independence? Given that Scotland would have the largest deficit in Europe, disqualifying it from EU membership? Given that we would face tax rises, benefit cuts and severe austerity without the Barnet formula support from the UK? And would be a woke republic where women have less rights than cross dressers, and with free speech forbidden even in our own homes?
The Times described an independent Scotland as a banana republic without the bananas. Personally I think “bananas” sums it up nicely without the rest of the sentence.

Removal of Scotland from Westminster's rule, basically. Most of Scotland leans differently than the rest of the UK. So often we are having laws imposed on us that we didn't in the main vote for. Generally I think devolving and localising powercan be a good thing, too.

See I don't buy that Scotland 'leans' differently - I think we're pretty much the same with a different accent.

Polls have shown that we lean much the same.

@ArabellaScott

There are plenty of good reasons to vote independence, fwiw. The EU being a rather large elephant in the room.

But not at the cost of women being erased.

Yes let's vote for independence and then plead to join the EU. I was a Remainer but that argument makes no sense if "self determination" means so much to anyone.

"Self - determination" is far more of a threat than self ID.

Maybe this is in line with other parties standards of behaviour but it's not exactly inspiring of confidence I'd have thought

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-chief-whip-patrick-grady-steps-down-amid-sexual-harassment-allegations-pdnqkzd8z?shareToken=59fb212a842f6ea6ce83da6ff1754ac3

I also don't buy that Scotland 'leans' differently. I think this is a quite a widespread fallacy that people cling onto to give them a sense of superiority (eg, we're not like them, we're different, better.).

Many nations (indeed many individuals) can have a sense of exceptionalism, superiority. The UK has it in relation to the EU; Scotland has it in relation to the rest of the UK or at least England. But, it's a delusion. Scotland, as a whole is not that different from England, as a whole, in my experience.

I'm not saying it's 'superior', just that it's different.

@ArabellaScott

I'm not saying it's 'superior', just that it's different.

Really? You personally might not but that's not the perception I have.

I don't actually agree that Scotland is "different" in any meaningful sense.

Research I've come across shows in terms of political views or values, there's not really that much difference with the rest of the UK. This isn't surprising given the close ties. However, the political framework in the Scottish parliament vs Westminster allows for more variety in the sort of trajectory taken hence room for things to be done a bit differently. If England had a separate assembly or parliament from Westminster, then it's possible there might be similar approaches to Scotland taken as well.

I do support power being more devolved and spread out on a local level, with flexibility to enable political solutions to be tailored for different areas based on needs.

If there's any rise in support for Scottish independence, it's due to the abject failure of Westminster in providing a compelling case for the union. Years of austerity based on dogma and ideology shows how little actual care there is for the union, with towns across the UK hollowed out and looked down on while everything has to revolve around London. Successive UK governments pretending they are unable to address socioeconomic issues and unwilling to invest heavily in the areas that need it. Lying to the public about how money works and keeping people economically illiterate and fearful of 'national debt' while stripping public assets and flogging them off to private investors for a tidy sum. So many industries and brands that were proudly British have been ruined and decimated.

@ValancyRedfern

If I were Scottish, I would not be voting for independence right now. When someone shows you who they are, believe them

Which is why there is not a snowball's chance in hell I'll be voting for them. To vote for them now is voting for a main party who will curtail your freedoms of what you can say and who have told you in no uncertain terms what they think of women.

Frankly the way I feel now I can't imagine EVER voting for them again and I certainly don't want to be part of an independent country with them in charge. I find the though utterly terrifying.

*thought

Many Scots already complain that everything revolves around the central belt, especially Edinburgh. The SNP has been in government in Scotland for years and have abjectly failed to improve the lot of millions outside the cities (and the lot of many in the cities). They blame Westminster, take no responsibility even though they have had years of opportunity. They've tinkered round the edges instead of taking the opportunity to make real and powerful change. It's not good enough (or even true) that the SNP hands are tied because of Westminster. This is one of the many reasons I don't take their push for independence at face value - they have lied, failed and I can't trust them to have been honest and truthful about what an independent Scotland will look like.

@reprehensibleme

See I don't buy that Scotland 'leans' differently - I think we're pretty much the same with a different accent.

I'd pretty much agree with this.

In many ways I'd say there's bigger differences between those living an urban life v a rural one.

I've lived in Manchester and I found the city and its people (and its weather) to be very similar to Glasgow, which is possibly why I love it so much and I reckon I've got much more in common with people living in the big cities in the North than I do with for e.g a fisherman living in the Highlands & Islands.

As has already been said, when someone shows you who they are believe them.

The SG have shown me they are authoritarian coercive progressives who have been institutionally captured and they pay lip service to women's rights so they can feel righteous while shitting all over us.

They can get tae fuck.

they have lied, failed and I can't trust them to have been honest

Agree. This is not a party who deserves to be in power.

I will always support independence (and tire of the usual suspects who pop into these threads just to tell us off). I do not support the SNP.

Thank you for explaining this.

I am so torn now. I really want independence for Scotland. The SNP are the only chance of that.

I've lived in Manchester and I found the city and its people (and its weather) to be very similar to Glasgow, which is possibly why I love it so much and I reckon I've got much more in common with people living in the big cities in the North than I do with for e.g a fisherman living in the Highlands & Islands.

I have also lived in both of these cities and they are so similar. The North of England has a great deal in common with Scotland in my experience.

I do think the rural/urban split is a good point, btw. But I don't know how that could be addressed, seeing as the demographics are so vastly different.