Worried about independence under the SNP

[Wandawomble]

I’m worried about independence and the hate crime bill. I don’t want to be sealed off in a country that will punish women for defending their sex based rights.
What are others feeling? My DH keeps saying once Scotland gets independence the SNP and their hate crime bill will be out. I don’t believe this. Who to vote for?

George Orwell should have named his book '2021' not '1984'

I simply do not understand how all this has got such a hold on politics. It's a niche issue and a very divisive one. There is a lot of pressure being applied from somewhere. Why else would the SNP be doing this? And other governments? So fast and in the face of such dissent. It's kind of scary.

If you have read the 'Denton's' document, it makes perfect sense. I take it you have heard of it NiceGerbil?

Voting anything but SNP/Green in May is the best short-term way of kicking the excesses of the Hate Crime Bill into touch.

Yes! Our best hope is a minority SNP government, so it's worth voting tactically. First option is to go for any candidate that is willing to openly stand up for women's rights (including any SNP like Joan McAlpine), otherwise choose someone who isn't SNP/Green and isn't a TWAW mantra chanter even if they are maybe a little wishy washy.

Based on polls, it looks like the SNP will win anyway, but if they have to form a minority government then it will at least be a slap in the face, especially if the Conservatives make some gains as opposition. Otherwise there will be an assumption in the SNP that people agree with their crazy policies. They need the wind taken out of their sails. Purity politics helps no one.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

Always worth popping into these threads to laugh at what asinine drivel the resident comedy unionist is spouting.

Oh look, resorting to name calling due to an inability to make an actual argument. I have no time for those who cannot argue for their position.

Also remember Scotland has a PR system so all votes get counted so even if an SNP person gets the constituency post if you voted non SNP your vote will count for list MSPs. Voting tactically is a first past the post tactic, less useful here. Vote for the party you want to give them more list MSPs

I have no issues with independence nor with greater powers within devolved governments but the finances worry me. I haven't seen any real drilling down into this. The SNP have been handing out rosy specs when it comes to finances. It was touched on in the last referendum but only really the headline catching 'what currency'.

It's all very well saying, lets get Independence then get rid of the SNP, but if you vote SNP, it will be 4 years in power for them and if the opinion polls drop and there are no guarantees of a win for the SNP, then, regardless of manifesto commitments, they will be able to say the economic situation is not conducive. You'll be stuck with the SNP for years in the hope that you get a referendum.

The carrot will just keep on being dangled

We have the option to move to another country and this morning agreed that Scotland is not the place to raise a daughter. So if SNP are re-elected we will be moving. I can not watch mine and my daughters rights be taken away so easily.

I'm voting Labour first vote, Conservative list vote. We are truly living in the upside down.

I honestly think I have no options left now tbh. This might be the first time I don't vote.

I have no issues with independence nor with greater powers within devolved governments but the finances worry me. I haven't seen any real drilling down into this. The SNP have been handing out rosy specs when it comes to finances. It was touched on in the last referendum but only really the headline catching 'what currency'

It was more than "touched on" by the No side. Of course reasoned argument and hard facts were just waived away by the separatist side. The economic argument is still "touched upon" by Unionists , but separatists still don't want to see it.

If you are "worried about independence under the SNP" the lack of any credible economic analysis should give you just as much pause as anything else.

Yip. Brexiters are idiots for not fully researching the reality of breaking away from a union. No voters are tiresome bean counters for caring about what will actually happen post indy.

I'm pro indy because I want to live in a normal European country where politicians are more local and accountable. Independence for Scotland would be good for England and Wales too .. why should they not have their own governments? I don't want to stay under Westminster control with its corruption and contempt for ordinary people (including women). Scotland hasn't voted Tory for many years yet we have a Tory government and Brexit. I care deeply about women's rights, left the bloody Scottish Greens after three solid decades membership over their misogyny, and am heartbroken by the Hate Crime Bill vote. But independence is not about the SNP, it's about a rare chance to build a better, more equal, greener country. There are no guarantees, but there never are... I see it as our best chance atm including for tackling climate change which is the biggest threat the world faces. I have been at many election counts; spoiled papers have absolutely zero effect on anything. Not voting hands power to those who do. It makes me furious but that's where we are so I'm voting SNP 1 and Green 2.

@MissBarbary

It's taken this for some of you to spot separatism is an idiotic, senseless idea based on nothing except some bizarre thought of "freedom" and imaginary grievances?

I have a Dutch pal who was saying this: independence for Scotland is separatism, nationalism, sense of superiority/grievance etc and we should be removing borders not creating them. So, I asked, who will the Netherlands merge with then? Germany? Maybe too big, what about Belgium, you're kind of similar really aren't you? Oh no it's not the same he said. But couldn't explain why. i.e. independence is normal for everyone but "not YOU, Scotland"...

I have a Dutch pal who was saying this: independence for Scotland is separatism, nationalism, sense of superiority/grievance etc and we should be removing borders not creating them. So, I asked, who will the Netherlands merge with then? Germany? Maybe too big, what about Belgium, you're kind of similar really aren't you? Oh no it's not the same he said. But couldn't explain why. i.e. independence is normal for everyone but "not YOU, Scotland"

Your comparisons in that argument are specious.

Not voting hands power to those who do. It makes me furious but that's where we are so I'm voting SNP 1 and Green 2

Have you actually read anything on this part of the forum? I don't mean what I'm saying but the other posters who have eloquently expressed at great length why the SNP and the Greens have no interest in women's rights.

I don't want to stay under Westminster control with its corruption and contempt for ordinary people (including women)

Up until recently, I would have agreed, only Scotgov seems very keen to replicate the corruption, sex scandals and contempt for ordinary people. The differences being:

1. No second chamber, so no layer of disinterested but informed ministers to put a check on the political game-playing and power-struggles of the 1st house.

1. No useful opposition. This is very unhealthy. Neither Labour nor the Tories seem to bother even trying in the past few years - I've wanted to vote for the former but the candidates have just been frankly unvotable.

1. A very concerning blurring of civil service, judiciary and govt, with all apparently partisan and too close to the govt for comfort. These bodies should all be scrupulously independent and as objective as possible

1. A huge lack of scrutiny and accountability from the media, with one or two notable exceptions.

Independence given those conditions would seem to me to be madness, I'm afraid. The SNP could have taken the past few years to consult the electorate, to discuss ways to tackle the dificult issues like misogyny, sectarianism, climate change, etc. Instead they have railroaded every ideology they decide is the correct one, run 'consultations' with the express intent of persuading the peopel they're supposed to be consulting, become ever more internecine and full of nepotism, lose themselves in petty wrangles and internal battles, and repeatedly approach any dissent with fury, contempt and arrogance.

No thanks to a country set up on those rules. Politicians are here to serve the electorate, not impose their own personal ideologies.

The SNP have set themselves up as the moral arbiters of the country, determined to bully everyone into voting for them, frighten and intimidate anyone who dissents. They govern by trying to shame the people, fight the people and lecture the people.

It can't last.

Exhibit A. From a govt that addresses its electorate as 'haters', working from the Twitter school of public relations.

Womeninadrawingroom, you'd think no-one in Scotland ever voted Conservative! In the last general election well over 50% of Scottish votes weren't for the SNP. In the last Scottish parliamentary election less than half the votes were for the SNP, so in Scotland more than half the population have a Scottish government they didn't vote for.

It's perhaps a bit disingenuous to use Belgium in your observations above - the union between Scotland and England is of over 300 years standing.

And tbh, the SNP are proving themselves remarkably unaccountable at the moment. And they appear to despise women.

Also, the Tories may not have had a majority in Scotland for years, but it'not long since we had a UK Labour government fronted by Scots - PM, 2 chancellors, so you can hardly claim Scotland is never represented at the top table.

“ A people that will elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims but imposters” - think before you vote

I am so tired of this nonsense about Scotland not getting the party it voted for at Westminster. If you persist in voting for a minority party like the SNP, who only contest 60 seats, that is a self fulfilling prophecy.
I didn’t vote for Tony Blair, but I accepted that a majority in the UK did. I didn’t throw a hissy fit and demand independence for my Tory voting county!
There are a quarter of a million Tory voters in Scotland. We DID get the party we voted for in the last election. Do stop conflating the SNP with the whole Scottish population.

@ArabellaScott

I don't want to stay under Westminster control with its corruption and contempt for ordinary people (including women)

Up until recently, I would have agreed, only Scotgov seems very keen to replicate the corruption, sex scandals and contempt for ordinary people. The differences being:

1. No second chamber, so no layer of disinterested but informed ministers to put a check on the political game-playing and power-struggles of the 1st house.

1. No useful opposition. This is very unhealthy. Neither Labour nor the Tories seem to bother even trying in the past few years - I've wanted to vote for the former but the candidates have just been frankly unvotable.

1. A very concerning blurring of civil service, judiciary and govt, with all apparently partisan and too close to the govt for comfort. These bodies should all be scrupulously independent and as objective as possible

1. A huge lack of scrutiny and accountability from the media, with one or two notable exceptions.

Independence given those conditions would seem to me to be madness, I'm afraid. The SNP could have taken the past few years to consult the electorate, to discuss ways to tackle the dificult issues like misogyny, sectarianism, climate change, etc. Instead they have railroaded every ideology they decide is the correct one, run 'consultations' with the express intent of persuading the peopel they're supposed to be consulting, become ever more internecine and full of nepotism, lose themselves in petty wrangles and internal battles, and repeatedly approach any dissent with fury, contempt and arrogance.

No thanks to a country set up on those rules. Politicians are here to serve the electorate, not impose their own personal ideologies.

This is brilliant, thank you for articulating it. Lack of a second chamber and public accountability are huge red flags. Just now it's women getting shafted but who knows who's next? With no checks and balances.

No second chamber

Plus a shitty electoral system. Blair and his fellow bastards made sure that any move towards PR they did were the worst possible ones with closed lists.

Although, actually, I take that back - the SNP just came up with something worse for their internal processes didn't they? Rigged seats and keeping voting totals secret so you couldn't tell which ones were rigged.

@Morgan12

I honestly think I have no options left now tbh. This might be the first time I don't vote.

Please vote anything but SNP/Green. Clipping their wings is long overdue.

Vote tactically, even if its not your preferred party. Just get the SNP out. if they are good enough, they’ll make it back in a few years