Worried about independence under the SNP

[Wandawomble]

I’m worried about independence and the hate crime bill. I don’t want to be sealed off in a country that will punish women for defending their sex based rights.
What are others feeling? My DH keeps saying once Scotland gets independence the SNP and their hate crime bill will be out. I don’t believe this. Who to vote for?

@Morgan12

Thank you for explaining this.

I am so torn now. I really want independence for Scotland. The SNP are the only chance of that.

No they are not. There are better ways to pursue this goal.

I any case i think it is naive to think that Nicola Sturgeon has any intention of pursuing independence and what is independence really worth if you have effectively a one party system when that party is hell bent on curtailing civil liberties and free speech? Frankly I'd rather have the safety net of being part of the UK's political process than being held to the kind of policies we are seeing from the SNP now, particularly when they have made their feelings about women quite clear. I think it is incredibly short sighted to put independence before anything else because if you vote on that alone you are then stuck with a party in charge whose policies have become increasingly totalitarian in nature (Named Person to 'Hate Crime' Bill) and legislation which is not fit for purpose.

From my understanding independence is wanting freedom from the UK, freedom to be able to handle their own finances and laws but what use is that if the party who give you independence are useless at writing effective legislation and are patriarchal in the extreme in the kind of legislation they want. So freedom for the country but not for the people? I may be missing something but I can't wrap my head around why anyone would want this.

I think some people (not suggesting you are one Morgan btw) are so blinded by the idea of independence, have been so wedded to that goal for so long they can no longer see how voting SNP is detrimental to the electorate - beyond independence what would you be voting SNP for? Certainly not because they are a party who believes in free speech or cares about women's issues. I don't get it - but I'm happy to listen to any reasoning regarding this attitude.

In any event you can vote ISP 2 but this does leave the first option wide open. I can't in good conscience vote SNP I believe their policies and current set up are undemocratic and insidiously authoritarian in nature.

Will never vote for nationalism, and the SNP demonstrate all of the negatives about nationalist ideology. Racism, bigotry, anti-womens rights and seperatism. Add to this the recent in fighting, lying and lack of transparency and it beggars belief that anyone would vote them.

I live in Edinburgh. I'm sure I could move to Bath, Oxford, Cambridge or Exeter and notice almost no difference.

I've never heard one coherent, logical or objective reason to support separatism. I voted no in both devolution referenda and the indy ref .I have since the first one moved from Labour to Conservative but it has not shifted my view that "independence" unthinking sentimentality.

As a Scot who lives in England, I think that the two countries are more alike now in many ways than they have ever been - which may explain some of the enthusiasm for Scottish nationalism as a means of differentiation. I think the main difference between Scotland and England is that the latter is a large, densely populated country in contrast to Scotland where a small population means that everyone knows everyone and the "kent your faither" attitude keeps people in check. The close links between people leads to a sense of community which can be lacking in England but also to the sort of narrow mindedness that appears to be rife in the so-called progressive policies of the SNP who seem to be the 21st Century successors of Robert Burns' "Holy Willie". I was absolutely gutted last night by the votes on the Hate Crime Bill and agree that it does not bode well for an independent Scotland.

I am pro independence so will vote for SNP as a means to an end but I really dislike the way they seem to want to control private lives.

I don't think they will disband after independence because they have other policies as a left wing party but I do hope we have a change of government then or even a strong opposition.

The SNP are not a left wing party. They are fairly centrist on a lot of issues, especially economics.

The Tories will make sure there is no independence vote before 2024. Even though they have sold Ulster Unionists down the river over Brexit and the border in all but name across the Irish Sea.

Much as I support Scottish independence though living in England, I maintain my opinion that the best argument against it is the SNP.

@ThePankhurstConnection

I've lived in Manchester and I found the city and its people (and its weather) to be very similar to Glasgow, which is possibly why I love it so much and I reckon I've got much more in common with people living in the big cities in the North than I do with for e.g a fisherman living in the Highlands & Islands.

I have also lived in both of these cities and they are so similar. The North of England has a great deal in common with Scotland in my experience.

Really? Which parts of Scotland would that be? Edinburgh? Perth? Orkney? the farming communities of East Lothian, Perthshire and the Borders?

Scotland has one proper sized city - Glasgow. If you (general you) are going to play this sort of (pointless) "fa's like us" game may be the reality is Glasgow is quite a lot like similar cities in England and very different from the rest of Scotland.

What is your problem? Pardon me for expressing my opinion on places I have lived!

I have lived in both cities and found them similar - lots of rural farming community in the North of England too you know. BTW they aren't the only places I have lived in either country

You know what MissBarbary people might find similarities between Scotland and England and there will be similarities whether you like it or not and unless you are the authority on both places you'll have to accept that some people disagree with you.

you'll have to accept that some people disagree with you

As will you. You seem terribly flustered by my expressing disagreement.

I am another strong independence supporter that is having my first SNP wobble. I can’t imagine not voting for them due to my belief in independence being the right thing, but endorsing what is happening feels deeply wrong. So troubling and I don’t know what to do.

@MissBarbary

you'll have to accept that some people disagree with you

As will you. You seem terribly flustered by my expressing disagreement.

Flustered? In what way?

Erm, sorry to butt in - I think you're both saying the same thing!

If the SNP did win independence the first thing they would do is set themselves up as a govt to manage the transition (for the next 10 years) Then when you asked them to fix women’s rights they would say ‘well we’ve got to sort the administration of the country out first and then we might deal with it’. It’s ‘after the revolution girls’ all over again. Don’t fall for it. Women’s rights are entitled to come first for once and I don’t want to live in a country that thinks they don’t matter and I won’t vote for a party that has such contempt for women ever.

Don’t fall for it. Women’s rights are entitled to come first for once and I don’t want to live in a country that thinks they don’t matter and I won’t vote for a party that has such contempt for women ever.

Absolutely. As I said previously, self-respect is key. As women, we must never meekly accept that our only position is to always stand at the back of the queue while 'real' issues are tackled.

There is no such thing as 'independence' in the C21. Every country is interdependent.

As we are seeing with this issue, Scottish civic society is utterly incapable of holding the government to account in any meaningful way.

Scotland is not more left leaning or radical than the rest of the UK. If anything it is more socially conservative.

The SNP are a single issue party with no analysis of the big policy dilemmas that face Scotland (and the UK).

The SNP are an authoritarian party, on one hand claiming we are all more progressive but also want to micro-police our every behaviour (hello Named Person, OBFA, this hate crime bill).

None of these dynamics will go away under 'independence' whatever that means.

There’s no reason why the SNP should be any good at anything really, they are in politics for one thing: the clues in the name! Of course they will pick the people who they think can make the best case for independence above their competence at anything else. Post independence (if it ever happens) voters who wanted independence will pick their representatives for other reasons. Politics is bound to change.
I really want independence. Not because I’m a flag waver or because I hate the English, but because I want government by people I might bump into in the street. I think if you’ve been to school with people, or know people who have, it’s harder for them to make out like some people deserve superwealth and others can get by on a crumb a week. I want to be European again.
An independent Scotland shouldn’t be judged by the SNP. Of course they’ve got things wrong. But they are temporary politicians, they are not the forever rulers of a future Scotland.

@ArabellaScott

Why the fuck would we even want independence? What is being offered - the chance to live in a country where women must sit patiently while the government works out what we can call ourselves, how we can talk about men?

Sorry, OP, I am absolutely fuming after yesterday and none of my anger is directed at anybody here, just at the Scottish government.

This was me last night to DH - saying I didn’t want to live here anymore. It was in the top of the dreadful news of that poor woman in London and I felt complete despair. DH was a bit stunned and defensive - but then today he was listening to the radio and it was all about women and the lack of safety we have and he was quite sorry. I will not be voting for independence unless we are with a government I feel safe with. Right now the SNP doesn’t feel safe for women. Even its own members.

If I was Scottish I wouldn't be voting for independence now, however much I wanted it. The SNP will be setting up the power structures, the governance of an Independent Scotland. It will be much, much worse than the hate crime bill.

@ASmallMovie

Was going to vote SNP but not a chance in hell now. They've shown their true colours regarding women's rights in the hate crime bill.

Currently undecided. Only Tories and an independent responded to emails re the Hate Crime Bill. Don't know if I could ever bring myself to vote Tory.

I thought about spoiling the ballot paper but it seems pointless. Only a counter sees it, probably wouldn't even read it, and it's just binned. it's not as if someone reads the messages to see why ballots were spoiled.

Would love some kind of campaign to bring this issue more to the fore.

Actually spoiled ballots do get read. They have to be checked by the candidates or their agents to make sure that there's no question.

Not that it will make any real difference though, it's much more productive to find a GC candidate.

Same as @Gingerkittykat. Will be voting SNP as I'm pro indy and see it as means to an end. Don't believe there is another viable option at this stage.

I really don't understand how anyone who cares fot women can vote SNP after today. What do you think you will get out of an SNP independence other than more of the same? No chance of repeating that forwomenscotland judicial review - that was based on UK legislation. 'Women' will be a meaningless word and you and your daughters rights will go with the union. And anyone who believes oil will fund it has not been to Aberdeen recently.

Why do people think voting SNP will lead to independence? What have they done in the past seven years to further that cause? Absolutely nothing. Just a lot of carrot dangling. Oh vote for us and we'll fight for independence then once the votes are iin it's one excuse after another They have been captured by woke entryists interested in nothing more than power, their own political careers and a seat on the gravy train..They will not change if they win this election. They will take it as an endorsement and continue with their lies, corruption and authoritarian policies. They are a fucking disgrace and shouldn't be anywhere near government.

This isn't a thread about Scottish independence so the posts saying why would anyone vote that way are a bit of a diversion. If it helps, I'd vote independent in a flash if I were a Scot. Not the point of the thread though.

On the topic. I simply do not understand how all this has got such a hold on politics. It's a niche issue and a very divisive one. There is a lot of pressure being applied from somewhere. Why else would the SNP be doing this? And other governments? So fast and in the face of such dissent. It's kind of scary.

In England alln the parties bar the Tories are twaw and I'd never vote Tory so politically homeless.

Women are half the population FFS. It's ridiculous.

As for the SNP. Alex Salmond seems to be dead set on tearing them apart. So who knows what will happen around that. The infighting accusations etc. The number of women and the court deciding they were all lying! The withdrawn statements. NS not following protocol. It's a huge mess and I think AS is out to damage the party as much as he can which I suspect is a lot.

@Wandawomble

I’m worried about independence and the hate crime bill. I don’t want to be sealed off in a country that will punish women for defending their sex based rights. What are others feeling? My DH keeps saying once Scotland gets independence the SNP and their hate crime bill will be out. I don’t believe this. Who to vote for?

I don't think the current UK Government will grant another Referendum so it's not a real threat but I would love to not have to constantly hear about it. Voting anything but SNP/Green in May is the best short-term way of kicking the excesses of the Hate Crime Bill into touch. I care most about the 'freedom of speech' aspect and preserving the right to say what you think (especially in your home) has traditionally been a Conservative policy.