The cognitive dissonance from 'TWAW' women

[CheeryTreeBlossom]

I've seen a few things today on social media which got me thinking: How do "liberal" feminists square up the argument that being a women is a feeling vs the experience we all know?

1. The awful disappearance of Sarah Everard has led to an outpouring on twitter of women highlighting how they are essentially bound by a curfew all the time (and not just when the police "helpfully suggest" it) and feel the fear of being followed/harassed/assaulted by men in public constantly.

2. Kamala Harris posted a video on Instagram about the 2.5million women how have left the workforce in the US (similar stats on Guardian about the UK) and it's driven by women being in lower paid work and not having access to childcare when schools close.

3. This scene from Fleabag appeared on my Facebook feed where Kristin Scott Thomas gives a powerful speech about how women are constantly affected by their bodies through the start of menstruation to menopause. Lots of positive articles from the time it aired:
   www.refinery29.com/en-gb/fleabag-season-2-episode-3

And yet these same women would call others bigots for saying biology matters and instead that feelings are more important to being a woman than anything else?
That to dislike finding myself in an enclosed public space with someone visibly male is phobic, and that our reproductively system has a huge impact in our lives and why women are still discriminated against?

Argh. I'm just sick of being the only one in my friends group that seems to see the hypocrisy.
They say JKR is a nasty transphobe but equally complain about the patriarchy and how childcare costs put women put of work

I started the thread because yes I want to understand the logic. I want to be able to discuss this rationally with my friends without them denouncing me as a bigot and destroying our friendship. I would love for the penny to drop, but if not I want us to be able to respect one another regardless.

These are women who absolutely say "fuck the patriarchy" and "men need to get their house in order, women live with constant harassment and threat of assault"
but then applaud "cervix-havers", "pregnant people" and think women wanting single sex spaces to not including males, regardless of identity, are weaponising their abuse.
It really is the hypocrisy that grinds.

I have mulled upon it the last few months of lockdown and can understand the be kind mentality, as on sm they follow tw like Monroe, Juno, Paris who have done a lot to try and pass. They maybe don't see as much the Alex Drummond/Pippa bunces of the movement.
However I don't understand the aggressiveness with which they denounce anyone who has concerns, as if it is literal violence, because it isn't.

@CheeryTreeBlossom

I started the thread because yes I want to understand the logic. I want to be able to discuss this rationally with my friends without them denouncing me as a bigot and destroying our friendship. I would love for the penny to drop, but if not I want us to be able to respect one another regardless.

These are women who absolutely say "fuck the patriarchy" and "men need to get their house in order, women live with constant harassment and threat of assault"
but then applaud "cervix-havers", "pregnant people" and think women wanting single sex spaces to not including males, regardless of identity, are weaponising their abuse.
It really is the hypocrisy that grinds.

I have mulled upon it the last few months of lockdown and can understand the be kind mentality, as on sm they follow tw like Monroe, Juno, Paris who have done a lot to try and pass. They maybe don't see as much the Alex Drummond/Pippa bunces of the movement.
However I don't understand the aggressiveness with which they denounce anyone who has concerns, as if it is literal violence, because it isn't.

If this is what you're referring to @Ereshkigalangcleg, then no I don't understand how you can think both.

@RootyT00t

Hang on. If they are just as likely to commit a crime as anyone else, can't we just equate them to women?

Looking at reasons and motivations for crime, are any of them biological?

Oh my God. They are just as likely to commit a crime as men in general. And the crimes they commit are the same sort committed by men in general. People have pointed this out on So Many Threads. Men and women have vastly different criminal profiles. What are you getting at? That we haven't found the "rape gene" yet?

Just went to the link for my local vigil and it states 'the word woman refers to anyone who identifies as such'. I was going to go but I guess they don't care about my safety as I don't 'identify as such'. Fuck this shit.

No.

That crime is largely a societal construct as opposed to a biological one.

So if someone is living as a transwoman , their patterns of crime are surely more likely to mirror women's than men's.

And yes, I'm aware there are rapist transwomen in prison. We can't not bloody know about that, because every discussion is pinned on them.

Back to the point of the thread though. I don't understand how someone can believe that TWAW but also give it the big guns about males. I don't understand how the two theories are remotely compatible.

"So if someone is living as a transwoman , their patterns of crime are surely more likely to mirror women's than men's."

Read again. As has been said a thousand times. What you think is "surely" true, is in fact false. There is no point having a discussion about what we each assume hypothetical TWs would "surely" do or not do. If you dispute the data, then dispute it with data.

And sorry, I don't want the thread to derail. It's about cognitive dissonance, and I'm wasting space probing a separate phenomenon, denial.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The point is not so much that, as a woman, I am afraid of being assaulted by men. The point is that I am much more afraid of being assaulted by a man than I am a woman, and the evidence tells me I'm right to think that way. As a woman, it's (some) men that are a threat to me statistically, not women. When I am vulnerable e.g. I am in a state of undress, I am sleeping, I want to be in a single sex space.

Yes exactly. And the women who parrot TWAW but are tweeting about male violence in the last few days also feel like this. Which is why it's striking that they call us bigots for not exempting a small group of males from this just on their say so.

It’s not just NAMALT, it’s No T are like that

Theyre acknowledging the male violence issue and bringing males into women’s categories but also sending (often young and vulnerable) females into men’s. It’s the encouragement of youngsters into men’s spaces that seems to be so thoroughly overlooked.

@bourbonne

"So if someone is living as a transwoman , their patterns of crime are surely more likely to mirror women's than men's."

Read again. As has been said a thousand times. What you think is "surely" true, is in fact false. There is no point having a discussion about what we each assume hypothetical TWs would "surely" do or not do. If you dispute the data, then dispute it with data.

I'm disputing the fact that tendency to crime is biological.

I agree OP. The aggressiveness of which they denounce anyone with concerns is baffling

It’s not even the perma- offended crowd, it’s rational people. People who would defend the right of religious groups to not hold same sex weddings but can’t listen to concerns on this. Institutional capture.

These are women who absolutely say "fuck the patriarchy" and "men need to get their house in order, women live with constant harassment and threat of assault"
but then applaud "cervix-havers","pregnant people" and think women wanting single sex spaces to not including males, regardless of identity, are weaponising their abuse.
It really is the hypocrisy that grinds.

Yes, I completely agree. It's batshit. They will actually denounce victim blaming and not believing victims but if you say that you want women only spaces because you are threatened by all males including MTF trans people due to a traumatic experience of male violence you are "weaponising", and they'll nod along to huge misogynists like Owen Jones who say this.

It’s not just NAMALT, it’s No T are like that

IMO they are so very aggressive and la la la I can't hear you in these arguments as they are basically terrified of no longer being able to live with their cognitive dissonance because your arguments make it unravel, and being forced to be an unwoke pariah with you and your unpopular friends.

So if someone is living as a transwoman , their patterns of crime are surely more likely to mirror women's than men's.
I'm disputing the fact that tendency to crime is biological.

Unfortunately according to all crime statistics transwomen share male patterns of criminality
Transwomen's tendency to crime does therefore appear to be biological. Transwomen are male and commit the same types of crimes as other men and with the same frequency.

I think the fact transwomen share the same crime profile as men doesn't necessarily show male crime is biological in origin, but that transwomen were brought up and socialised as boys/men and therefore have developed male patterns of behaviour.

but that transwomen were brought up and socialised as boys/men and therefore have developed male patterns of behaviour.

Could be but it is a pattern shared throughout the world. Probably a mixture of both nature and nurture. Still a really whopping difference between male behaviours and female behaviours though.

These are women who absolutely say "fuck the patriarchy" and "men need to get their house in order, women live with constant harassment and threat of assault" but then applaud "cervix-havers", "pregnant people" and think women wanting single sex spaces to not including males, regardless of identity, are weaponising their abuse ... I don't understand the aggressiveness with which they denounce anyone who has concerns, as if it is literal violence, because it isn't.

OP, cognitive dissonance uses a lot of mental bandwidth. It's very uncomfortable to live with. Someone trying to defend the indefensible gets ... well, defensive. They attack the messenger. Hence getting furious with anyone that points out simple facts like 'males aren't females'. They can't argue the point, they can only rage and fling insults. It plays out so often.

@334bu

**So if someone is living as a transwoman , their patterns of crime are surely more likely to mirror women's than men's. I'm disputing the fact that tendency to crime is biological.**

Unfortunately according to all crime statistics transwomen share male patterns of criminality
Transwomen's tendency to crime does therefore appear to be biological. Transwomen are male and commit the same types of crimes as other men and with the same frequency.

Then that depends on your criminological beliefs. I'd like to see any evidence which suggests motivation of crime is down to nature.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It’s not just NAMALT, it’s No T are like that

IMO they are so very aggressive and la la la I can't hear you in these arguments as they are basically terrified of no longer being able to live with their cognitive dissonance because your arguments make it unravel, and being forced to be an unwoke pariah with you and your unpopular friends.

Oh behave yourself.

Do you not think the 'other side' is as guilty of the same behaviour?

So, the cognitive dissonance. It really is quite something to watch, particularly how fear plays into it. Women are afraid to say 'the wrong thing' and they are afraid to 'walk down the wrong path' and in both cases male aggression is the thing they're afraid of, but in only one instance is it identified as such.

So, the cognitive dissonance. It really is quite something to watch, particularly how fear plays into it. Women are afraid to say 'the wrong thing' and they are afraid to 'walk down the wrong path' and in both cases male aggression is the thing they're afraid of, but in only one instance is it identified as such.

Yes, exactly. They are, as I say, terrified of being marked as unwoke as they know it makes them a target of misogynistic abuse.

Then that depends on your criminological beliefs. I'd like to see any evidence which suggests motivation of crime is down to nature

Belief didn't really come into it, statistics did. Males commit almost all sex offences and the vast majority of violent crime. Statistics also show that identifying as a woman makes no difference to your propensity to be a violent or sex offender. It would therefore appear that being male is the most important factor. Nature or nurture? Doubt that if it was just nurture that the seismic gap between the prevalence of violent, sexual criminality between men, transwomen,non binary males and those born female would be quite so massive.

@334bu

*Then that depends on your criminological beliefs. I'd like to see any evidence which suggests motivation of crime is down to nature*

Belief didn't really come into it, statistics did. Males commit almost all sex offences and the vast majority of violent crime. Statistics also show that identifying as a woman makes no difference to your propensity to be a violent or sex offender. It would therefore appear that being male is the most important factor. Nature or nurture? Doubt that if it was just nurture that the seismic gap between the prevalence of violent, sexual criminality between men, transwomen,non binary males and those born female would be quite so massive.

But as other PP have said, it's far more likely that these people being raised as males than the fact they have a penis is responsible for their crimes.

Nobody says it was "far more likely" to be nurture.

You need a penis to commit rape. Superior body strength is very helpful too.

I don't even care that much whether it's nature or nurture. However, if it is nurture as you say, then that suggests that we can try to influence this. Members of the male sex class are behaving in a way that does not happen in the female sex class. Obvious conclusion: address it with the males.

But we behave in different ways - Ie our abuse is done mentally and psychologically mainly because we couldn't overpower a man unless we had to.

Do we as women address those?