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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TW nominated for the womens prize for fiction

478 replies

Kit19 · 10/03/2021 18:59

for fucks fucking sake!

"Peters’ longlisting comes after organisers clarified in 2020 that it was open to any “cis woman, a transgender woman or anyone who is legally defined as a woman or of the female sex”. “It’s a prize for women, and trans women are women, so …” said chair of judges and author Bernardine Evaristo."

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Helen8220 · 14/03/2021 14:17

The book was published on 12 Jan 2021 and interestingly over 60% of those Goodreads reviews are from before that date, which means they must have been 'ARCS' or Advanced Reader Copies which publishers send out to people they can reply on to (mostly) give a good review. Given that readers often request particular books they want to read in advance that's quite a self-selecting group of reviewers, rather than 'ordinary readers' as it were.

I wasn’t aware of that, thanks. However, it doesn’t alter the impression I’ve got that the majority people who’ve read this book appear to think it’s good and not misogynistic

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/03/2021 14:18

Good for them.

merrymouse · 14/03/2021 14:19

However, it doesn’t alter the impression I’ve got that the majority people who’ve read this book appear to think it’s good and not misogynistic

Why do they think it is good? They must have a reason?

Helen8220 · 14/03/2021 14:21

What do you think the people on goodreads got out of the book?

The best way for you to get an answer to this would be to read the reviews! But in summary, it seemed to me people generally enjoyed it (with caveats about lack of plot), found the characters interesting and well written, and felt it gave them new perspectives on the experiences of trans women, and on people’s feelings towards ‘motherhood’

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 14/03/2021 14:24

I'm sure many people do think its good but I'm going to keep with my initial impression which is that writing unironically about how women find violence 'satisfying' because it affirms their femininity is simply misogynistic af and has no place in a women's fiction prize.
If they wanted to include a trans author as a nominee, they could at least have picked one who didn't write about how women enjoy being slapped in the face.

merrymouse · 14/03/2021 14:29

The best way for you to get an answer to this would be to read the reviews

I have already quoted a review and explained that from the description of the plot in the review, it described a uniquely male perspective of motherhood. The main protagonists fret over the impact of parenting on their identities in the full knowledge that it’s a choice they can walk away from.

What in the reviews you have read implies that this is a misreading?

Helen8220 · 14/03/2021 16:09

I have already quoted a review and explained that from the description of the plot in the review, it described a uniquely male perspective of motherhood. The main protagonists fret over the impact of parenting on their identities in the full knowledge that it’s a choice they can walk away from.

What in the reviews you have read implies that this is a misreading?

It feels like a bit of a pointless exercise, my trying to respond to your interpretation of a review I haven’t read of a book I haven’t read, drawing on other people’s reviews?

merrymouse · 14/03/2021 16:53

Helen8220 I have quoted and linked to the review. It isn’t long so you could easily read it.

You have expressed an opinion based on the merit of the reviews you have read, but are unwilling to explain why you think these reviews (which from what you say aren’t much more than ‘I like this book’) are relevant.

If you can’t explain why you have an opinion, yes, this is a bit pointless - but then why express an opinion?

OldCrone · 14/03/2021 17:04

[quote Helen8220]Can you link to a review that explains why it is interesting and worthwhile? I chose one from the Standard because I thought that would be fairly neutral, but the review just supports the impression that it is written from a male perspective.

I looked at a few of the reviews at the top of the list on goodreads (to get more of an ‘ordinary reader’ perspective) and lots of people there seem to have taken a lot from it

www.goodreads.com/book/show/48890225-detransition-baby[/quote]
The second review is by Morgan Page, and includes this sentence: Discussing the book with a trans friend in her 70s, she described it as "a bit too 'not in front of the cis,' but in a good way."

Ideal candidate for a women's prize for fiction then Hmm

The third one gives it 3 stars. This reviewer appears to be female.

Some excerpts:
I was also surprised by Amy/Ames' comments on autogynephilia, which I always took to be a transphobic label. Here, (s)he defends it in a way, prompting me to go do a bit of outside reading on the subject (though I did have to roll my eyes when Amy/Ames cites porn as evidence of what cis women want sexually, lol).

I saw some reviews complaining about unlikable characters, and they are, to be fair. ... Some of their thoughts are discomfiting, especially their internalized misogyny ... I do wish more time - and more of a challenge, honestly - had been given to some of Reese's unhealthy views on womanhood.

I have questions still-- such as why the fuck Ames would ever think it appropriate to invite Reese to be a second mum to his/her unborn baby without first consulting the mother actually carrying the child

Warnings for transphobia, misogyny, suicide, HIV/AIDs phobia, abuse, and abortion.

Doesn't seem like a totally positive review to me.

Helen8220 · 14/03/2021 17:52

Helen8220 I have quoted and linked to the review. It isn’t long so you could easily read it.

You have expressed an opinion based on the merit of the reviews you have read, but are unwilling to explain why you think these reviews (which from what you say aren’t much more than ‘I like this book’) are relevant.

If you can’t explain why you have an opinion, yes, this is a bit pointless - but then why express an opinion?

I’m just not sure why you’re so interested in my views on this particular review - I mentioned the reviews generally seemed positive, you referred to one specific positive review and said you thought it had a male perspective (and/or that its description of the book showed that the book had a male perspective on motherhood?). I have now read the evening standard review and didn’t think it was particularly insightful - it mostly just explained things that happen in the first few pages of the book.

The reason i commented here was that I learned about the long listing of this book on this thread, and on the basis of what was said about the author’s previous works, and that one page from Detransition, Baby that was reproduced, it did seem a bit weird that it had been long listed (although I have no problem with trans women being eligible) - it sounded like the book was so badly written and expressed such dubious views about women that perhaps its having been long listed was evidence of some sort of cynical ‘virtue-signalling’.

But when I went to read about it elsewhere I got a very different picture - it seems to be generally well thought of and although some people have commented on the unlikeability of the characters and the misguided feelings about femininity expressed by one character in particular, there was little suggestion its content overall was misogynistic. So it seemed to me that the view presented here was not a fair representation of the situation.

I trust that the panel of female authors who make the decisions are sufficiently principled to make decisions based purely on merit.

Helen8220 · 14/03/2021 17:55

Doesn't seem like a totally positive review to me.

I wasn’t suggesting the reviews were all wholly positive, just that they were broadly positive and didn’t seem to consider the book as being overwhelmingly misogynistic in the way people here seem to think it is.

Akela64 · 14/03/2021 18:33

The female character is hardly mentioned in the reviews. She seems irrelevant to their experience of the book.

Which says it all really.

Why would you see abusive sexism when women are invisible?

merrymouse · 14/03/2021 18:41

But when I went to read about it elsewhere I got a very different picture - it seems to be generally well thought of and although some people have commented on the unlikeability of the characters and the misguided feelings about femininity expressed by one character in particular, there was little suggestion its content overall was misogynistic. So it seemed to me that the view presented here was not a fair representation of the situation.

So explain why you think there is little suggestion that it is misogynistic.

You are stating a view but not backing it up with any evidence.

Helen8220 · 14/03/2021 18:51

So explain why you think there is little suggestion that it is misogynistic.

You are stating a view but not backing it up with any evidence.

Because most people who’ve read the book don’t seem to think it’s misogynistic. Neither you nor I have read it ourselves, so we’re not really in a position to form an informed opinion.

merrymouse · 14/03/2021 19:01

Because most people who’ve read the book don’t seem to think it’s misogynistic

But you can’t explain who these people are or quote from their reviews.

2Olives1Onion · 14/03/2021 19:45

Has anyone here actually READ Detransition, Baby?

I have; lent by a friend who transitioned MTF in the mid-‘90s. (I mention this because it probably colors my view of the book, and I’ll refer to it where relevant.)

Peters is a competent writer but this book is not objectively great. It meanders and includes all kinds of anecdotes, asides, cultural political commentary, and conversations that don’t advance the plot or develop the characters. Much feels shoehorned in, like the author wanted to include certain items for the sake of it. It reminded me quite a bit of Girls (the Lena Dunham TV series) in that way. I got the feeling that the author might be skilled/experienced in writing short stories or opinion pieces or blog entries, but hasn’t learned how to structure, plot, and prune a novel. I kept wishing for an editor.

The narrative is frustratingly choppy, cutting from one scene to another at the point of greatest tension (end of season television cliffhanger-style) and sometimes missing out the most interesting parts of the story. For example, when one character gets drunk and blurts out something shocking at a business dinner, we cut to another character going out to a comedy club on the same night and chatting and reminiscing for pages. When we finally get back to the action - I want to know how the prospective clients reacted, and also what motivated a seasoned professional to get so drunk in those circumstances in the first place! - nothing. The character is semi-coherent in a taxi on the way back to her hotel. We never find out what happened.

The book is misogynist, no question. To be clear: I am not suggesting that the author has any animosity toward women as a group. Misogynists, unlike sexists, often don’t. Misogynists can love women, misogynists can be women. But what they also characteristically do is accept things and even promote things that hurt women in the world, because they accept and disregard harm done to women as they would not accept and disregard harm done to men, or to people in general. Someone above mentioned Andrea Long Chu and that was my first comparison as well.

The book alternates between the perspectives of Reese and her ex Ames (fka Amy), both told in the first person. The third member of their triangle, Ames’s pregnant boss/girlfriend Katrina, plays a major part in the story but we only see her through the eyes of the other two characters. Amy (in flashbacks) has a lot of thoughts about wanting to be dominated which are tied in to fantasies about being a girl, then post-transition seems happy in a relationship with Reese for a time, and then seems to be having absolutely vanilla sex with Katrina after detransitioning.

Reese uncritically gets off on sexual danger and violence and humiliation of the kind that is, in real life, disproportionately nonconsensually directed against women. Possibly some women feel that way outside of fiction - for example, Histoire d'O was written by a woman, albeit for the purpose of exciting her sadomasocistic male lover rather than for a general audience. (Maybe it’s just Reese’s personality? Maybe it’s due to some past trauma?) What makes this book overtly misogynist, though, is the relentless and overriding narrative that all women feel this way and have throughout history. There’s no critique of this from the author or any other character. It is not only treated as the character’s belief, but as a fact. There’s no acknowledgement at all that that these attitudes actually put women in more danger and promote a culture of misogyny, hardcore porn-as-(faux)-reality, and rape apology. I’d criticise any writer for that: male or female, trans or not.

I can’t imagine too many women enjoying reading this book when the real world is so bleakly misogynistic and looking like it’s getting worse at the moment. For people who really don’t “see” misogyny (or see it and feel other than upset about it) I can believe they would gloss over the monologues about how the essence of woman is an object to be used and try to get back to the action. (I don’t think many people are going to be interested in the sex scenes which mostly just sound like, well, bad sex.) There’s also a short passage about incest, with Reese musing on how she is a mother to the younger Amy as well as a lover, and therefore has a kinship with all mothers. Again, Dunham: that weird, non-self-aware crossing of a perceived cultural line (or for the more traditionally minded a taboo) and relishing it not for its own sake but in the belief that others will find it edgy.

The book is also very NYC-specific and seems kind of retro although the setting for the main story line is roughly present-day. It has a kind of Kathy Acker/Sarah Schulman New York Before it Gentrified feel - which I enjoyed, and I think a lot of readers will. Reese’s (and formerly Amy’s) social group is insular with (it seems) only trans people in the group - which might be a necessary plot device to set up the conflict for Ames over leaving and returning to the community. (There’s even more weird Dunhamish stuff here, in that the author kind of side-references black and Latina transwomen and briefly tells us what “they’re” like, but doesn’t include them except as an apparent checklist item).

Ames explains to Katrina that he thinks of the community as orphaned elephants; they’ve been traumatized by not having any older trans people around to guide them, no blueprint of what it’s like to “do trans” and just get on with life once you’ve figured out you are trans and made any necessary social, medical, legal, etc. adjustments. Ames says this explains their anger, violence, etc. toward each other and the rest of the world. I found that an interesting insight but - and here’s where my aforementioned friend’s perspective comes in - I wished for some discussion or acknowledgement of how older trans people, people who have transitioned more than a few years ago, and/or trans people who are indeed getting on with life and interacting with the outside world are now rejected, threatened, and silenced as “truscum” and “transphobic” and “traitors” by their community. Which is ironic, because their success is what Ames/Peters seems to be saying that younger trans people and people who have transitioned more recently want but don’t know how to get - because they have no elders or role models. Head meets desk moment, for me.

I’m not normally an advocate of strict “stay in your own demographic” rules for writers, but here - the old advice “write what you know” might have been helpful. The author isn’t detransitioned and the detrans storyline is a weak point of the book, which is bad as the publicity hinges on it. But then, Ames isn’t really detransitioned; when Katrina is struggling to understand Ames’s transition and detransition, she says she can’t opt out of being a woman or get rid of the physical disadvantages or cultural baggage even if she wanted to. Ames responds that it’s the same for him - he’s still a woman and still trans, just not “doing trans”. I wanted Katrina to engage further, but she just acquiesces - furthering my growing view that Katrina (the only non-white main character in the book, and the only natal woman) is a cardboard cut-out stereotype.

We know from Evaristo that this prize isn’t looking for books of literary merit, so the above might help someone that’s thinking of reading the book, but won’t help the prize committee. She says they are looking for good storytelling and a story that hasn’t been told. Is there good storytelling here? Sure, mostly in the flashbacks - but it doesn’t come together as a unitary whole. Is it a new story that has never been told? I’ve been thinking about this a lot - there are not a lot of novels written for adults with adult transpeople as the protagonist or narrator or main character(s). But there are a lot of nonfiction books very similar to this one, minus the not-so-strong fictional plot line: Long Chu, Julia Serrano, etc. There’s also a lot of generally mediocre-to-bad YA fiction with trans protagonists which touches on similar themes (without the sex and the overt misogyny) almost all of it by people who transitioned well into adulthood.

I feel like we’re in a similar place with literature by and about trans people now as we were in the 80s/90s with literature by and about lesbians: where baddish or at least not goodish stuff gets hyped and people in the group love it because they’re desperate for something - anything! - that reflects their world view and there’s not much. And people outside the community feel like it’s all OK now, because there’s “representation” - when in fact it wasn’t OK and books with lesbian characters were being published willy-nilly regardless of quality - but ONLY if the lesbians were doing lesbian things all through the book, and only for a lesbian market. I hope the whole trend toward self-publishing and accessibility online hastens the arrival of good books with trans narrators and protagonists and main characters just existing and doing whatever, and trans authors writing freely AND WELL on a variety of subjects.

My verdict on Detransition, Baby : get rid of Ames and Katrina, get rid of the misogyny, give Reese some self confidence, and then give her a murder mystery to solve or a mountain to climb or a space demons to battle to get her mind off the navel-gazing. THAT could be a good book. Oh, and put some fucking black people in it - this is NYC we’re talking about!

To be fair, I haven’t read all of the other books nominated and I did see that Naoise Dolan’s overtly racist and colonialist Exciting Times is on the long list too, so hey - I’m open to the view that Peters’s book might come across as brilliant by comparison, especially to people who are used to calling out racism but not misogyny. I’m cheering for Yaa Gyaasi, though, who - in addition to being a genuinely excellent writer - manages to do both.

VicSynix · 14/03/2021 19:59

Thank you 2Olives1Onion, that was a really useful and indepth review. I'

Helen8220 · 14/03/2021 20:13

Yes, thanks for the really interesting and thoughtful review @2Olives1Onion !

334bu · 14/03/2021 20:19

Think I'll give it a pass.

Helen8220 · 14/03/2021 20:24

Possibly some women feel that way outside of fiction

Just on this point, having spent a certain amount of time exploring the BDSM scene (many years ago) I can confirm that there are significant numbers of women who are into these sorts of things (in an entirely consensual and clearly fantasy/role play way) outside of fiction

MaudTheInvincible · 14/03/2021 21:04

Just bought The Mermaid of Black Conch, thanks for the heads up Thanks

BoredOfCbeebies · 15/03/2021 16:26

@2Olives1Onion I'm about halfway through the book, I thought I should read it and challenge my assumptions. Am I really the transphobic bigot some would say I am?
I think it's an easy read, and interesting to get a trans perspective on things. I felt some sympathy for Ames, describing how as a teenager they feel and want to be seen as a woman; and want to be seen and feel feminine - which must be incredibly difficult when there are huge societal expectations on how women and men are supposed to act.
That said, I rolled my eyes at repeated suggestions that women want to be abused for a sexual kick. It reads very much like porn/erotica at times - fine if being dominated is your thing, but don't assume that's how all females feel. The vast majority don't!
I feel I've learnt more about how it feels to be transgender, that there are crossovers between being a woman and a trans woman, but that I live in the world of the Emperor's New Clothes, where I'm supposed to believe that a woman has a penis ( as do many characters in the book), that trans women are actually women and that a trans woman has a right to be on the women's shortlist - created specifically for women.

dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 15/03/2021 20:57

@PurBal

They'd be better off scrapping the gendered prizes.
I think it would be a good idea to not buy any of the books on this short list and then the organisers might finally get the message. As someone else implied, why can't a transman with real female parts be on this list?
NiceGerbil · 15/03/2021 22:03

Some women enjoy BDSM, sure.

That's probably another thread as it's quite a lovely discussion!

Interested to hear more from anyone else who to has read it, if there's nuance and thought etc around the things that have been posted.

In general the idea that women see being beaten by their abusive male partner, as it makes them feel feminine, and that it's a badge of honour amongst women...??!!??

If the author goes onto think about this and realise how ridiculous that idea of women was ok but nothing I've read suggests this is the case.

The idea of exposing yourself to HIV as a parallel to to the risk of pregnancy is offensive on so many levels.

NiceGerbil · 15/03/2021 22:13

If you scrapped the prizes etc for women then presumably the same would apply to everything else- the MOBOs, the LBGT+ literary prize mentioned upthread. Things for people with disabilities? Where do you stop.

There nothing wrong with having these things for certain groups. People who aren't in interested don't have to pay attention.

It's just a shame so much of the stuff for women has been opened up. The option of more things is never accepted.

How are trans men getting on at progressing in all the stuff from dominated by men? I'd be interested in hearing their voices more.

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