TW nominated for the womens prize for fiction

[Kit19]

for fucks fucking sake!

"Peters’ longlisting comes after organisers clarified in 2020 that it was open to any “cis woman, a transgender woman or anyone who is legally defined as a woman or of the female sex”. “It’s a prize for women, and trans women are women, so …” said chair of judges and author Bernardine Evaristo."

Those excerpts:

I do not believe that any non-violent men harbor the belief that women enjoy being victims of violence at the hands of men. I don’t think any women believe that about their own sex, either.

I think only a man that fantasizes about being violent toward women would write something so far off the truth of the female experience.

I don’t understand why they chose this book. Fundamentally it’s up to the organisers of a book prize to make the rules, whether we like them or not. But why choose this book? I don’t see how its inclusion doesn’t affirm the idea that it describes a female experience. I don’t understand how that isn’t harmful.

Of a book is submitted and not chosen - shrug ‘oh well, up agonist some really good books, maybe next year’?

I suspect in some dysfunctional way it is imagined that it being so vastly different from any actual 'female experience' makes it an ideal candidate, brave and challenging and daring...

... instead of it being mediocre porn.

Just bought "Mermaid of the Black Conch" and spent the last hour in bed reading it, really engrossing so far - thanks for bringing it to my attention!

Yes it’s a new, special, previously “unheard voice” kind of female experience and therefore inherently better and more important...

Whereas if this kind of writing openly and overtly came from a good old unreconstructed male man, they would see it for what it is - woman-degrading porn.

The excerpts posted here were pretty dire, but from a quick google it does seem to have received fairly universally positive reviews, both from critics and from the community on goodreads.com - so I wonder if those excerpts really did justice to the book

Who exactly do you think is going to point out that the Emperor is insufficiently clothed?

@Helen8220

The excerpts posted here were pretty dire, but from a quick google it does seem to have received fairly universally positive reviews, both from critics and from the community on goodreads.com - so I wonder if those excerpts really did justice to the book

American Psycho is generally viewed as a book that has literary merit. That doesn't meant that it isn't full of misogyny. However, there are no penalties for discussing the misogyny and the perspective of the writer, as here:

www.newstatesman.com/culture/2015/01/women-are-clever-enough-know-when-art-just-misogyny-disguise

Is that also true of this book?

(Actually, it's quite likely that Glosswitch did receive some abuse for writing about a feminist topic, but you know what I mean!)

@Helen8220

The excerpts posted here were pretty dire, but from a quick google it does seem to have received fairly universally positive reviews, both from critics and from the community on goodreads.com - so I wonder if those excerpts really did justice to the book

You can check for yourself. The first six pages are available as a sample on Amazon. You can see it here: www.amazon.co.uk/Detransition-Baby-Torrey-Peters-ebook/dp/B089XJWJR4?tag=mumsnetforu03-21 It's pretty clear that the excerpts are representative. They weren't snipped out of a longer piece that gives them context.

It's the number one bestseller in "Erotic transgender fiction"

Doesn't that tell us everthing we need to know? I have no adversion to erotic fiction, I think it's preferable to porn, but surely thats an existing prize and category where this book should be being shortlisted.

You can check for yourself. The first six pages are available as a sample on Amazon.

Thanks for the pointer, I’ve just had a read of the free extract - I thought it was pretty well written and deals with some interesting ideas, I’d be tempted to read the book. Obviously it’s hard to empathise with some of the feelings expressed by the characters, but then fiction isn’t really about creating wholly likeable characters who only express entirely unproblematic feelings.

American Psycho is generally viewed as a book that has literary merit. That doesn't meant that it isn't full of misogyny. However, there are no penalties for discussing the misogyny and the perspective of the writer, as here:

www.newstatesman.com/culture/2015/01/women-are-clever-enough-know-when-art-just-misogyny-disguise

Is that also true of this book?

I remember reading American Psycho as a teenager and finding it pretty disturbing and unpleasant. From the bit of this book I’ve just read it doesn’t strike me as misogynistic so far.

Well we all have different tastes in what we like to read.

Does it honestly not strike you as misogynistic to have a character repeatedly expressing the view that women enjoy being beaten up because it confirms their femininity?
Worse still the character actually gets off on this thought and thinks that women do too. It's a rapists apologetic.

I get it's a work of fiction and that characters can express repellant views but for me the only way that isn't misogynistic is if that view is condemned or shown to be wrong by other characters or events.

If that's upheld as being something that women really think then I say it is misogynistic.

Does it honestly not strike you as misogynistic to have a character repeatedly expressing the view that women enjoy being beaten up because it confirms their femininity?
Worse still the character actually gets off on this thought and thinks that women do too. It's a rapists apologetic.

I get it's a work of fiction and that characters can express repellant views but for me the only way that isn't misogynistic is if that view is condemned or shown to be wrong by other characters or events.

If that's upheld as being something that women really think then I say it is misogynistic.

I did find that page which was posted on here quite objectionable, but the longer extract which is available free from Amazon struck me as much more nuanced and made me wonder whether that page might make more sense in the context of the story as a whole. I’m reserving judgement until I’ve read the whole thing, but the fact that so many people think it’s an interesting and worthwhile book suggests to me that that extract may be less problematic in context.

but the fact that so many people think it’s an interesting and worthwhile book

Can you link to a review that explains why it is interesting and worthwhile? I chose one from the Standard because I thought that would be fairly neutral, but the review just supports the impression that it is written from a male perspective.

Well it's very fair of you to read it all first. I am not sure I could stand to.

The Amazon reviews seem to me like a lot of people are 'confused' by the book or describe it as 'niche'. There are a number of suggestions that the plotting is not good but the characters apparently are. It honestly comes across to me that people are scared to say anything critical and/ or overpraise because of the 'unique voice'

It seems to me from the extracts and the free pages that at best it's going to be some kind of chick lit thing and at worst fetish porn fiction. Neither of those are genres that I read or that I think should be nominated for a women's fiction prize. I do not feel disposed to give it the time of day.

It could be phenomenal and that would not change the fact that it doesn’t belong in the women’s category whether that category is about “stories” by women or “stories” about women. And certainly not one I’d choose for a literary category.

I wouldn't put too much value on the 5 star reviews it has received on Amazon or Goodreads. These sites are very easy to influence - especially for niche market fiction like this and I'd imagine TP has a number of allies active on social media who have been swelling the reviews.

Can you link to a review that explains why it is interesting and worthwhile? I chose one from the Standard because I thought that would be fairly neutral, but the review just supports the impression that it is written from a male perspective.

I looked at a few of the reviews at the top of the list on goodreads (to get more of an ‘ordinary reader’ perspective) and lots of people there seem to have taken a lot from it

www.goodreads.com/book/show/48890225-detransition-baby

I looked at a few of the reviews at the top of the list on Goodreads (to get more of an ‘ordinary reader’ perspective) and lots of people there seem to have taken a lot from it

The book was published on 12 Jan 2021 and interestingly over 60% of those Goodreads reviews are from before that date, which means they must have been 'ARCS' or Advanced Reader Copies which publishers send out to people they can reply on to (mostly) give a good review. Given that readers often request particular books they want to read in advance that's quite a self-selecting group of reviewers, rather than 'ordinary readers' as it were.

Presumably there are more press reviews.

What do you think the people on goodreads got out of the book?