Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

@jj1968

Which is it? Puberty blockers are either a pause to give kids time to think or definitely the right treatment for 11-12 year olds. The two ideas can’t exist together

Yes they can. Puberty blockers have only been used with a very small number of patients referred to GIDS - those whose gender dysphoria has been both persistent and insistent - who are the most likely to become trans adults. The most optimal treatment for this group would be cross sex hormones at the onset of puberty however blockers are used just in case some of them change their minds. The fact most don't doesn't mean it was the wrong treatment it means it was the right treatment. If everyone referred to GIDS was given puberty blockers the desistance rate would no doubt be much higher, but that's not how it works.

Can I draw your attention to what Thomas Steensma has said about girls who are now presenting as transgender in their teens. Steensma has been working with children with gender dysphoria for many years at a clinic in the Netherlands.

“We don't know whether studies we have done in the past can still be applied to this time. Many more children are registering, and also a different type, ”says Steensma. Suddenly there are many more girls who apply who feel like a boy. While the ratio was the same in 2013, now three times as many children who were born as girls register, compared to children who were born as boys.

The explosive increase in requests in transgender care simply requires a new investigation. ... The research on that small group of people from before 2013 may not apply to the large group that there is now. And here the help of other countries is also needed. “We conduct structural research in the Netherlands. But the rest of the world is blindly adopting our research. While every doctor or psychologist who engages in transgender care should feel the obligation to do a good before and after measurement.”

“Little research has yet been done on the treatment with puberty inhibitors and hormones in young people. That is why it is also seen as experimental. We are one of the few countries in the world that conducts ongoing research into this. In Great Britain, for example, a study has only now been published, for the first time in all these years, on a small group of transgender people. This makes it so difficult, almost all research comes from ourselves.”

The full article is here (in Dutch, I translated the above excerpts using google translate):
www.ad.nl/nijmegen/dringend-meer-onderzoek-nodig-naar-transgenderzorg-aan-jongeren-waar-komt-de-grote-stroom-kinderen-vandaan~aec79d00/

To work with a young person on exploring their feelings, to offer counselling and support, to explore in depth the exact nature of the medication and surgery and discuss in full the side effects, to adopt a wait and see approach whilst supporting that person, to find out what background influences may be in play and to explore the coexisting mental health issues or other medical history that particular young person is dealing with, to also look at studies of mental illness in young people and what can cause that i:e peer influence etc and use that knowledge in order to go a bit deeper BEFORE prescribing anything, is NOT conversion therapy. It is basic common sense. Just like stickers and ribbons are not literal violence. We are mothers. We are here for the safety and safeguarding of children. We have legitimate concerns.

The Trevor Project, who authored the study in the OP, are not some random bunch of statisticians who just cobbled together a quick study about LGBT people without really knowing how to do it, they are an American non-profit organization founded in 1998 focused on suicide prevention efforts among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning (LGBTQ) youth and have ben studying sucidality in LGBTQ youth for 23 years - they are world experts on the subject and have done multiple studies over many years.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trevor_Project

So they are not so easily dismissed. Nor is the fact the study was done in the USA - there is no logical reason to think that conversion therapy harms US trans kids but not UK trans kids - it's the same condition having the same "treatment" applied.

Nor can you discount it as being too old - it was done in 2019 - just over 2 years ago, and there is no logical reason to conclude that conversion therapy was harmful for trans kids in 2019 but doesn't harm them at all in 2021.

So at this point, the study remains the best evidence presented in this thread for the effects of conversion therapy on trans kids. If you support removing the T from the proposed legislation on conversion therapy, then your claim to be concerned about the well-being of trans kids is empty.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Depends how to define "convert".

Zapping with electricity and beating with hoses, not OK.

Gently pointing out that they can't become the opposite sex and helping them to accept the body they are in is OK.

And if they can't accept the body they are in?

What form did this "conversion therapy" take? Was it simply a failure to immediately affirm the child's assertion that they were now the opposite sex, by any chance?

shizuku

We know who Trevor Project is.

And we will continue to tell you this is a self-selected survey that is undefined. It is an indication, yes, but should NEVER be used as 'BEST EVIDENCE' because it is not.

Please read what people are saying, simply repeating what you wish to have believed will not make the data any less problematic.

@Shizuku - why do you insist on ignoring the gay conversion therapy that is being done to gender noncomforming young people, either because they live in a homophobic, sexist society, or because they have homophobic parents?

Why don't you engage with what women have posted here rather than just parroting Trevor Project stuff?

(And are you American? Not everywhere is just a smaller version of America. Not all American social phenomenon can just be cut-and-pasted across to other countries, and to insist that they can is pretty US-centric.)

So they are not so easily dismissed.

yes. yes they are easily dismissed for policy setting purposes in the UK. The data is not clearly defined even and causation has not be explored adequately for any accurate correlation.

it's the same condition having the same "treatment" applied.

Please explain very clearly what that same 'treatment' is though?

And if they can't accept the body they are in?

Does anyone ever help them to try to accept their body? Or is anything other than total affirmation that they are actually the opposite sex considered to be conversion therapy?

@GreyhoundG1rl

What form did this "conversion therapy" take? Was it simply a failure to immediately affirm the child's assertion that they were now the opposite sex, by any chance?

Can you answer this @Shizuku? I asked you a similar question near the beginning of the thread yesterday, but you haven't replied.

@Helleofabore

shizuku

We know who Trevor Project is.

And we will continue to tell you this is a self-selected survey that is undefined. It is an indication, yes, but should NEVER be used as 'BEST EVIDENCE' because it is not.

Please read what people are saying, simply repeating what you wish to have believed will not make the data any less problematic.

If it's not the best evidence, then there must be better evidence. Post it.

So at this point, the study remains the best evidence presented in this thread for the effects of conversion therapy on trans kids.

What is conversion therapy? Who is defined as 'trans kids'?

If you support removing the T from the proposed legislation on conversion therapy, then your claim to be concerned about the well-being of trans kids is empty.

What is conversion therapy? What is conversion therapy for LGB people? What is conversion therapy for 'T' as you put it?

Did you even read the clinician paper that discussed how affirming only treatment is not the best treatment for ALL trans people?

Could you please discuss how affirming only treatment is the best treatment for instance, for a traumatised teenaged female of sex abuse who also has underlying other co-morbidities?

@Helleofabore

So they are not so easily dismissed.

yes. yes they are easily dismissed for policy setting purposes in the UK. The data is not clearly defined even and causation has not be explored adequately for any accurate correlation.

You would dismiss a study that suggests conversion therapy causes suicides in trans youths when deciding whether to ban conversion therapy in trans youths?

@GreyhoundG1rl

What form did this "conversion therapy" take? Was it simply a failure to immediately affirm the child's assertion that they were now the opposite sex, by any chance?

Trans conversion therapy would be any "therapy" that attempts to change a trans person's gender identity to match the sex they were assigned at birth.

If it's not the best evidence, then there must be better evidence. Post it.

Again, ALL OR NOTHING.

It doesn't work that way I am afraid.

Faulty and unclear data does not make for sound policymaking. It does lead to opening up avenues of research.

And please also realise that high suicide risk IS well accepted. it is actually not showing anything that is not know. But there are several expert sources that point out that this risk DOES NOT always decrease with transition.

To make policy based on flawed data inferring that even to treat underlying mental health issues is HARMFUL. Not only is this logical, it is supported by a slew of experts with decades of experience each.

You would dismiss a study that suggests conversion therapy causes suicides in trans youths when deciding whether to ban conversion therapy in trans youths?

What does 'conversion therapy in trans youths' consist of? What is being done to them and by whom?

You have been asked this a number of times now, but you have not yet explained exactly what is happening to these 'trans youths' when they undergo what you call 'conversion therapy'.

Here's just one example of how affirmation helps:

www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/fulltext

Results: After adjusting for personal characteristics and social support, chosen name use in more contexts was associated with lower depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior. Depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior were lowest when chosen names could be used in all four contexts.

Conclusion: For transgender youth who choose a name different from the one given at birth, use of their chosen name in multiple contexts affirms their gender identity and reduces mental health risks known to be high in this group.

What does 'conversion therapy in trans youths' consist of? What is being done to them and by whom?

I would like to know the answer to this as well.

@OldCrone

You would dismiss a study that suggests conversion therapy causes suicides in trans youths when deciding whether to ban conversion therapy in trans youths?

What does 'conversion therapy in trans youths' consist of? What is being done to them and by whom?

You have been asked this a number of times now, but you have not yet explained exactly what is happening to these 'trans youths' when they undergo what you call 'conversion therapy'.

Scroll up.

Trans conversion therapy would be any "therapy" that attempts to change a trans person's gender identity to match the sex they were assigned at birth.

Cross posted just now with your reply. But this still doesn't explain exactly what happens to them. Also who is doing this to them?

In what way would you expect someone's 'gender identity' to match their sex? What is a gender identity?

I have decided I am not going to post, as I am feeling very angry and sometimes saying nothing is the best way.

Ah shuzuku thanks for your definition of conversion for trans people
I would extend your definition to also include attempts to change a body to make it look like that commonly associated with the gender identity

You would dismiss a study that suggests conversion therapy causes suicides in trans youths when deciding whether to ban conversion therapy in trans youths?

I have explained to you my view in multiple posts on this thread. I suggest that you read them. There are other posters who have articulated the issue with this particular study far better than me as well.

You are now trying to reduce my view to a very simplistic statement. To be clear, the post you have quoted states

yes they are easily dismissed for policy setting purposes in the UK. The data is not clearly defined even and causation has not be explored adequately for any accurate correlation.

Please tell me again with respect to all the information I have posted, why you think such an ambiguously defined study from the US (including nearly 40% of respondents indicating they were religious) should be used for UK policy making?

But I will say chosen name helps reduce the risk, fine, that is however not saying "pump 'em full of drugs"