Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

[quote Erkrie]The link for Denton's is in this article.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/amp?__twitter_impression=true&s=08[/quote]
Thanks for posting that gem. It probably should be posted on many more threads than it is.

I have been plopping it on to threads recently. I came across it again and figured that as it's a 2019 article, lots of new people might not have read it. It's a quick education into the tactics behind this movement. Which can be applied to any movement really that wants to sneak policy in hidden in the shadows.

Just came back to post it! Cheers Erkrie

Perhaps, moving forward, we should call it the ‘Denton’s / Crispin Blunt’s Committee How-To Guide’?

Alternatively, puberty blockers are rarely prescribed to youth, so unless someone is absolutely sure that a child had either precocious puberty or gender dysphoria, they aren't prescribed, thus meaning that children with gender dysphoria who are prescribed them are significantly more likely to proceed on to HRT and/or surgery.

Taking out the precocious puberty, which is clearly defined medical condition, with diagnostic criteria and hormones that can be measured, your point here about the use of puberty blockers for gender dysphoria is demonstrative of a new line of argument that has become more popular since the Keira Bell ruling. For years, we’ve been told that puberty blockers are a “pause”, that give kids “time to think” and work out how they really feel. Now we are being told that they’re only given to children who are absolutely definitely gender dysphoria who, of course go on to cross sex hormones because it’s clearly the right treatment from the start.

Which is it? Puberty blockers are either a pause to give kids time to think or definitely the right treatment for 11-12 year olds. The two ideas can’t exist together, and I think the latter has become the official line to make sure kids can get them. It’s a “we’ve always been at war with Eastasia” approach and it’s transparent.

Puberty blockers cause permanent physical harm for no psychological gain. No one can explain why they should be given or justify their use given what we now know.

Like 'the idiot's guide' or 'for dummies' books in legitimising corrupt policies.

@MrsWooster

Perhaps, moving forward, we should call it the ‘Denton’s / Crispin Blunt’s Committee How-To Guide’?

Now we are being told that they’re only given to children who are absolutely definitely gender dysphoria who, of course go on to cross sex hormones because it’s clearly the right treatment from the start.

I think that any poster who states this ignores a) the GenderGP expose recently on just how easy it is to get the medicalised treatment pathways being encouraged by many (but not all) trans activists, b) the increasing number of detransitioners who in the majority are female.

The male transitioning story is quite quite different yet it does seem from looking at who is advocating for early transition that the current female transitioners health needs are perhaps not considered fully.

Alternatively, puberty blockers are rarely prescribed to youth, so unless someone is absolutely sure that a child had either precocious puberty or gender dysphoria, they aren't prescribed

But they can get them privately.

Yes they can get them privately. Gender gp use a loophole in the law by issuing private prescriptions from the EEA which are then sent to and given out from UK pharmacies.

www.gov.uk/guidance/prescriptions-issued-in-the-eea-and-switzerland-guidance-for-pharmacists

Hopefully this abusive practice will get closed down soon, where gender gp seek to get round government policies by abusing this loophole.

There clearly is scope for pharmacists to refuse to dispense. This needs tightening up.

@NotBadConsidering

Alternatively, puberty blockers are rarely prescribed to youth, so unless someone is absolutely sure that a child had either precocious puberty or gender dysphoria, they aren't prescribed, thus meaning that children with gender dysphoria who are prescribed them are significantly more likely to proceed on to HRT and/or surgery.

Taking out the precocious puberty, which is clearly defined medical condition, with diagnostic criteria and hormones that can be measured, your point here about the use of puberty blockers for gender dysphoria is demonstrative of a new line of argument that has become more popular since the Keira Bell ruling. For years, we’ve been told that puberty blockers are a “pause”, that give kids “time to think” and work out how they really feel. Now we are being told that they’re only given to children who are absolutely definitely gender dysphoria who, of course go on to cross sex hormones because it’s clearly the right treatment from the start.

Which is it? Puberty blockers are either a pause to give kids time to think or definitely the right treatment for 11-12 year olds. The two ideas can’t exist together, and I think the latter has become the official line to make sure kids can get them. It’s a “we’ve always been at war with Eastasia” approach and it’s transparent.

Puberty blockers cause permanent physical harm for no psychological gain. No one can explain why they should be given or justify their use given what we now know.

The doctors in the Netherlands who first started using this treatment on children have started to become concerned about its use in children who first present as transgender as teenagers.

twitter.com/will_malone/status/1366825810951213057

Dr. Thomas Steensma, who helped develop and implement the “Dutch Protocol” (the interventions of puberty blockers, followed by cross-sex-hormones), has made a series of public statements that under normal situations would be self-evident to most medical professionals:/1

He asks: “Where does the large flow of children come from who have suddenly registered for transgender care since 2013? And what is the quality of life like for this group long after sex change? There is no answer to those questions.” /2

This follows commentary by Dr. Annelou de Vries (part of the same Dutch Protocol collaborative), reminding us that adolescents with recent-onset gender dysphoria (no childhood history of dysphoria) were not part of their study protocol./7

She writes that given uncertainties about outcomes in late presenters with no childhood history of dysphoria, there should be a renewed focus on psychological support, as hormones and surgeries may not be appropriate. /8

There are some links on the thread to an article about Steensma (in Dutch) as well as some papers which are relevant to this thread.

The Danger of Conflating Ethical Psychotherapy with Conversion Therapy

Thanks for the links oldcrone.

Thanks OldCrone. I was just reading one of the links posted by another poster on another thread and remembered Dr Steensma's recent clarification on this.

And was reminded to that Dr Will Malone posted this link too.

This is a good balancing article from a group of gender specialist clinicians who are very worried about the push for affirming only treatment from around the world.

www.segm.org/danger_of_conflation

I would suggest Shizuku in the name of balance, might like to read this. It does discuss treatment options in relation to suicide risk and mental health.

Here is a couple of paragraphs:

Without a doubt, attempts to force a change in one’s gender identity have no place in the field of mental health. Yet, we have been growing increasingly concerned with the conflation of ethical psychotherapy for gender dysphoria with conversion therapy. The study authors erased the critical lines that separate coercive and unethical attempts of conversion from ethical psychotherapy. Our analysis also revealed a number of serious methodological flaws and misinterpretations of the data that invalidate the study conclusions. In fact, the study provides no credible evidence that either psychological distress or suicide attempts (which are present at elevated rates in gender dysphoric individuals), are a result of ethical psychotherapy.

The authors also fail to reflect on their own key finding—the high prevalence of serious uncontrolled mental illness in the study subjects who recalled “GICE” efforts. The fact that gender dysphoric people continue to struggle with a significant burden of mental illness, both pre- and post-transition, has been documented consistently across a range of studies, and this finding in itself calls for more emphasis on the provision of quality mental health services for this population.

link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10508-020-01844-2.pdf

It pretty much sums things nicely though.

ETHICAL psychotherapy vs coercive and unethical attempts of conversion.

So, thanks OP for providing us the opportunity to pull together some interesting balancing counterviews for us all to read.

And to discuss what may be the potential motivations behind each perspective. I know that the readers of these threads appreciate having this information and seeing how the different perspectives are presented and supported.

@Shizuku

So would there be any agreement here that trying to convert a trans child to cis is likely to be harmful to that child?

Why state it like that? It assumes so much!

The only statement, approach, is surely to support the child understand their feelings, causes, effcets, pathways and endp points in an age appropriate manner.

Not to assume anything when you are talking to a presumably upset and confused child! Or even jjust a curious one!

Which is it? Puberty blockers are either a pause to give kids time to think or definitely the right treatment for 11-12 year olds. The two ideas can’t exist together

Yes they can. Puberty blockers have only been used with a very small number of patients referred to GIDS - those whose gender dysphoria has been both persistent and insistent - who are the most likely to become trans adults. The most optimal treatment for this group would be cross sex hormones at the onset of puberty however blockers are used just in case some of them change their minds. The fact most don't doesn't mean it was the wrong treatment it means it was the right treatment. If everyone referred to GIDS was given puberty blockers the desistance rate would no doubt be much higher, but that's not how it works.

Yes they can. Puberty blockers have only been used with a very small number of patients referred to GIDS - those whose gender dysphoria has been both persistent and insistent - who are the most likely to become trans adults

How is that ethical when the Tavistock think blockers can actually cement gender dysphoria? That they make it more likely?

The fact most don't doesn't mean it was the wrong treatment it means it was the right treatment

If only we had the confidence that appropriately intensive (where needed) counselling and other treatments were being offered and fully followed up by GIDS.

And no. This is another 'all or nothing' approach. Just because it may have resulted in a person deciding to take cross hormones, does not allow for any nuanced reasoning or discovery regards to this statement.

There may have been just as good an outcome with a different course of treatment.

You cannot state the lack of evidence to the contrary means it is definitely the right course of treatment.

@Datun

Yes they can. Puberty blockers have only been used with a very small number of patients referred to GIDS - those whose gender dysphoria has been both persistent and insistent - who are the most likely to become trans adults

How is that ethical when the Tavistock think blockers can actually cement gender dysphoria? That they make it more likely?

Even better, knowing this, why haven't Tavistock done significant research into this to check why this is so.....

@Datun

Yes they can. Puberty blockers have only been used with a very small number of patients referred to GIDS - those whose gender dysphoria has been both persistent and insistent - who are the most likely to become trans adults

How is that ethical when the Tavistock think blockers can actually cement gender dysphoria? That they make it more likely?

I don't think there's any published evidence of that.

I don't think there's any published evidence of that.

Shall we continue to discuss what else there is a lack of published evidence from the the Tavistock for? I really think we all need to be concerned at the disservice and harm that is being done by NOT doing the research.

There is a lack of trans female sexed adult from previous generations compared to the number of female children going forward to blockers and surgery

I don't believe that this is driven by changes in chemical exposure in the Womb leading to more such children , nor do I believe they all killed themselves or are all serious depressed or suddenly coming forward for surgery

I believe it's because they learnt to live with their whole true self

I don't think there's any published evidence of that.

Interesting use the word 'published' jj.

The info had to be obtained by using FOI.

In addition, there is unpublished evidence that after a year on GnRHa children reported greater self-harm, and that girls experienced more behavioural and emotional problems and expressed greater dissatisfaction with their body—so puberty blockers exacerbated gender dysphoria.

www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers/

Hellebore, what else is lacking in hard peer reviewed, meta analysis level proof?

Benefit or otherwise Affirmation per chance?
Ditto Physical transition?