Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

In think the people who attempt such conversions have a very clear idea what they expect someone of a Specific sex to be like , which will be essentially conforming to stereotypes

@midgedude

Ah shuzuku thanks for your definition of conversion for trans people I would extend your definition to also include attempts to change a body to make it look like that commonly associated with the gender identity

That's a good point.

Why is it considered to be 'conversion therapy' to convince a person that there is nothing wrong with their body, but it's not considered to be conversion therapy to affirm that their body is wrong and needs to be changed?

@Helleofabore

You would dismiss a study that suggests conversion therapy causes suicides in trans youths when deciding whether to ban conversion therapy in trans youths?

I have explained to you my view in multiple posts on this thread. I suggest that you read them. There are other posters who have articulated the issue with this particular study far better than me as well.

You are now trying to reduce my view to a very simplistic statement. To be clear, the post you have quoted states

yes they are easily dismissed for policy setting purposes in the UK. The data is not clearly defined even and causation has not be explored adequately for any accurate correlation.

Please tell me again with respect to all the information I have posted, why you think such an ambiguously defined study from the US (including nearly 40% of respondents indicating they were religious) should be used for UK policy making?

Because the study suggests that conversion therapy harms trans youth.

@Shizuku

Here's just one example of how affirmation helps:

www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/fulltext

Results: After adjusting for personal characteristics and social support, chosen name use in more contexts was associated with lower depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior. Depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior were lowest when chosen names could be used in all four contexts.

Conclusion: For transgender youth who choose a name different from the one given at birth, use of their chosen name in multiple contexts affirms their gender identity and reduces mental health risks known to be high in this group.

This is a study behind a paywall.

Are you saying that affirming only treatment is social transition only? Nothing more?

You would dismiss a study that suggests conversion therapy causes suicides in trans youths when deciding whether to ban conversion therapy in trans youths?

Except it doesn't, does, it, @Shizuku? Even if - and it's a big "if" - you accepted this survey as even vaguely rigorous (which for the record, I don't), it talks about "LGBTQ" youths.

So, for all you know, the conversion therapy reported in it is homophobic parents pressuring their gay and lesbian kids to transition so they will have "straight" kids. And so, under your own requirements, gender identity clinics should have to shut down to stop this gay conversion therapy.

Is this the correct reading of the "survey"? I don't know. And neither do you, because the survey is junk.

Why do you insist on ignoring gay conversion therapy? What's your agenda in this?

@midgedude

Ah shuzuku thanks for your definition of conversion for trans people I would extend your definition to also include attempts to change a body to make it look like that commonly associated with the gender identity

You would extend the definition to mean that, but fortunately, no one will take you seriously.

And if you were to ban conversion therapy based on your definition, you would outlaw transition completely. An act most fair-minded people would see as somewhat fascistic.

Trans conversion therapy would be any "therapy" that attempts to change a trans person's gender identity to match the sex they were assigned at birth.

Do you think the body should be surgically altered instead?

Or that both the body and the psychological wellbeing of the individual left alone?

You would extend the definition to mean that, but fortunately, no one will take you seriously

I think people are simply asking you what it means. But you're not very forthcoming with that.

Because the study suggests that conversion therapy harms trans youth.

Please be very specific in what you regard as conversion therapy. I have seen no clear definition from you, or from the study you keep telling us is the best evidence.

It is actually really important to know what you consider conversion therapy and what the Trevor Project consider conversion therapy and what respondents consider conversion therapy.

Particularly those with religious backgrounds.

Again, ignoring what we are saying will not change the problems with this Trevor Project study being used the way you wish it to be used.

@ArcheryAnnie

You would dismiss a study that suggests conversion therapy causes suicides in trans youths when deciding whether to ban conversion therapy in trans youths?

Except it doesn't, does, it, @Shizuku? Even if - and it's a big "if" - you accepted this survey as even vaguely rigorous (which for the record, I don't), it talks about "LGBTQ" youths.

So, for all you know, the conversion therapy reported in it is homophobic parents pressuring their gay and lesbian kids to transition so they will have "straight" kids. And so, under your own requirements, gender identity clinics should have to shut down to stop this gay conversion therapy.

Is this the correct reading of the "survey"? I don't know. And neither do you, because the survey is junk.

Why do you insist on ignoring gay conversion therapy? What's your agenda in this?

You can accuse the Trevor Project of doing "junk" surveys if you like. I can't take you seriously. What I would take seriously is you presenting me with quality studies showing that conversion therapy is harmless or even beneficial for trans youths.

So you think it's a good idea to change a body to match a gender identity, but not to change s gender identity to match the body?

Could you explain why ? Like I can't see the difference myself , I don't believe in changing people full stop

This is a study behind a paywall.

Full text is here

youthrex.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Chosen-Name-Use-Is-Linked-to-Reduced-Depressive-Symptoms-Suicidal-Ideation-and-Suicidal-Behavior-Among-Transgender-Youth-2018.pdf

@Erkrie

Trans conversion therapy would be any "therapy" that attempts to change a trans person's gender identity to match the sex they were assigned at birth.

Do you think the body should be surgically altered instead?

Or that both the body and the psychological wellbeing of the individual left alone?

It's up to the individual trans person to decide whether they think any surgical interventions will help them.

It's up to the individual trans person to decide whether they think any surgical interventions will help them

Do you think counselling and emotional support would help them to make that decision?

@midgedude

So you think it's a good idea to change a body to match a gender identity, but not to change s gender identity to match the body?

Could you explain why ? Like I can't see the difference myself , I don't believe in changing people full stop

Would you discourage a cis woman with a full beard from having it removed if she said that having such an overt physical masculinity made her uncomfortable and depressed? Would you suggest she had therapy to convert her personality to one that enjoyed being a bearded lady?

@Erkrie

It's up to the individual trans person to decide whether they think any surgical interventions will help them

Do you think counselling and emotional support would help them to make that decision?

It's certainly helpful for some and should be available to all trans people if and when they need it. Some don't need it.

Would you discourage a cis woman with a full beard from having it removed if she said that having such an overt physical masculinity made her uncomfortable and depressed? Would you suggest she had therapy to convert her personality to one that enjoyed being a bearded lady?

No. For one really good reason. Hair removal does not cause long lasting physical damage. Gender reassignment however can cause stroke, brittle bone, heart disease, inability to have children, the list goes on.

Knowing this, would you encourage someone to go ahead without recieving counseling and emotional support?

You can accuse the Trevor Project of doing "junk" surveys if you like. I can't take you seriously. What I would take seriously is you presenting me with quality studies showing that conversion therapy is harmless or even beneficial for trans youths.

But, @Shizuku, you can't even defend your assertations even if we all did accept that Trevor Project surbey, though, can you?

What I am interested in is someone who posts a survey about "LGBTQ" youth, but shows no regard at all for harm caused to gay and lesbian young people. There's a name for people like this.

It's certainly helpful for some and should be available to all trans people if and when they need it. Some don't need it

Surely if someone is asking for such physical changes there is an absolute duty to ensure they are making the right decision? The amount of detransitioners who thought they didn't need it, well turned out they did. How would you know, considering this, which people do need it? And which people don't?

@Shizuku

The Trevor Project, who authored the study in the OP, are not some random bunch of statisticians who just cobbled together a quick study about LGBT people without really knowing how to do it, they are an American non-profit organization founded in 1998 focused on suicide prevention efforts among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning (LGBTQ) youth and have ben studying sucidality in LGBTQ youth for 23 years - they are world experts on the subject and have done multiple studies over many years.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trevor_Project

So they are not so easily dismissed. Nor is the fact the study was done in the USA - there is no logical reason to think that conversion therapy harms US trans kids but not UK trans kids - it's the same condition having the same "treatment" applied.

Nor can you discount it as being too old - it was done in 2019 - just over 2 years ago, and there is no logical reason to conclude that conversion therapy was harmful for trans kids in 2019 but doesn't harm them at all in 2021.

So at this point, the study remains the best evidence presented in this thread for the effects of conversion therapy on trans kids. If you support removing the T from the proposed legislation on conversion therapy, then your claim to be concerned about the well-being of trans kids is empty.

shizuku, no-one is trying to discredit the Trevor Project. The report presents data from a large number of LGBTQ young people in the US, and there is no reason to think that their survey was not well-designed. But the fact remains that their data as presented in the report do not support the conclusions you are trying to draw.

All that the data you link to in you OP show are that some US trans and nonbinary young people attempt suicide after intervention that is classified by the data-collectors as conversion therapy. That's it. That's the extent of the evidence in the report.

There is no way to check that the rate of suicide attempts in this group is higher with or without conversion therapy, because that information is not presented.

There is no way to determine whether the suicide attempts reported in the conversion therapy group were caused (directly or indirectly) by the intervention, because not enough information is supplied in the report, nor are any statistical analyses reported that might support that conclusion - e.g. by showing that suicide attempts were more closely associated with conversion therapy than with other mental health diagnoses, or age, or educational attainment, or socioecenomic disadvantage, or neurodiversity, or length of time since transition, or level of social/familial support, etc.

There is no way of knowing whether survey results obtained in the US, where legal protections against discrimination, access to healthcare and religious demographics are very different, are applicable to the UK.

There is no way of knowing whether the results from this self-selected group of participants, recruited via social media, are representative of all trans and nonbinary young people in the US, et alone elsewhere.

It isn't evidence of the effects of conversion therapy, let alone "best evidence".

It's certainly helpful for some and should be available to all trans people if and when they need it. Some don't need it

Also, do you consider counselling / emotional support / watchful waiting, to be gender conversion therapy?

But the fact remains that their data as presented in the report do not support the conclusions you are trying to draw

This, this, this. Maybe the survey is junk, maybe it's absolutely brilliant. But what we've been able to see does not in any way support @Shizuku's assertions.

I would actually prefer a world where people understood the full diversity of people so that a bearded lady didn't feel it was "masculine "

If she didn't like it fine, as it does her no harm to remove it

[quote OldCrone]This is a study behind a paywall.

Full text is here

youthrex.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Chosen-Name-Use-Is-Linked-to-Reduced-Depressive-Symptoms-Suicidal-Ideation-and-Suicidal-Behavior-Among-Transgender-Youth-2018.pdf[/quote]
Thanks OldCrone

So, this article states that a study where simply using the chosen name for people reduced their symptoms. This is absolutely fine and great information to have. Of course, we also know that actually reducing suicide ideation is rather more complex than simply using a chosen name.

I also don't believe that anyone on this thread has suggested that people don't have their chosen name respected.

I do not feel this gives us any more sense than before for your definition for conversion therapy however.

But thanks for posting it, it was interesting to read.

Trans conversion therapy would be any "therapy" that attempts to change a trans person's gender identity to match the sex they were assigned at birth

For the record, this definition is incredibly wide and still is non-specific. Because in some parts of the world, psychotherapy for underlying co-morbidites has been considered conversion therapy.

Do you understand the issue with this?