Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

"Conclusion: These findings are in striking contrast to previous work with gender-nonconforming children who had not socially transitioned, which found very high rates of depression and anxiety. These findings lessen concerns from previous work that parents of socially transitioned children could be systematically underreporting mental health problems."

That is a study of depression, anxiety and self-worth in a cohort of socially-transition children. It's not a longitudinal study and there is no direct comparison with a transgender group who had not socially transitioned. The average age of participants is 10, and the upper limit of the age range is 14. These were mostly pre-pubertal children who were likely to "pass" socially.

The study failed to find significant differences between the socially-transitioned transgender group, a group of their siblings and an age-matched unrelated, non-trans control group.

However the study did find significant differences between the groups on measures of anxiety. Parents reported significantly higher-than-average anxiety levels in their socially-transitioned trans children. Parents did not report significantly higher levels of anxiety in the siblings of socially-transitioned trans children. Anxiety levels were significantly higher in socially-transitioned trans children than in non-trans controls, and marginally higher than in their siblings.

Interestingly, self-worth scores were substantially lower across the board in children aged 12-14 in comparison with younger children (a marginally significant effect). There were no differences between the trans group and either control group. One interpretation of those data would be that early adolescence is, on the whole, a difficult time psychologically for many children.

For the lurkers, that last link from Shiz was nothing to do with conversion therapy.

The study was done 5 years ago. It studied no child beyond the age of 14.

I've reproduced the abstract below. You may note that the conclusions do not follow from the results and method stated. Surprising.

Children deserve better than this.

Objective
Social transitions are increasingly common for transgender children. A social transition involves a child presenting to other people as a member of the “opposite” gender in all contexts (e.g., wearing clothes and using pronouns of that gender). Little is known about the well-being of socially transitioned transgender children. This study examined self-reported depression, anxiety, and self-worth in socially transitioned transgender children compared with 2 control groups: age- and gender-matched controls and siblings of transgender children.

Method
As part of a longitudinal study (TransYouth Project), children (9–14 years old) and their parents completed measurements of depression and anxiety (n = 63 transgender children, n = 63 controls, n = 38 siblings). Children (6–14 years old; n = 116 transgender children, n = 122 controls, n = 72 siblings) also reported on their self-worth. Mental health and self-worth were compared across groups.

Results
Transgender children reported depression and self-worth that did not differ from their matched-control or sibling peers ( p = .311), and they reported marginally higher anxiety ( p = .076). Compared with national averages, transgender children showed typical rates of depression ( p = .290) and marginally higher rates of anxiety ( p = .096). Parents similarly reported that their transgender children experienced more anxiety than children in the control groups ( p = .002) and rated their transgender children as having equivalent levels of depression ( p = .728).

Conclusion
These findings are in striking contrast to previous work with gender-nonconforming children who had not socially transitioned, which found very high rates of depression and anxiety. These findings lessen concerns from previous work that parents of socially transitioned children could be systematically underreporting mental health problems.

X-posted with 30PercentRecycled

Agree - the conclusions are a spectacular reach from the evidence presented.

I've reproduced the abstract below. You may note that the conclusions do not follow from the results and method stated. Surprising.

I'm very grateful to the Scientists and statisticians on this thread, who are debunking shiz's links. And personally, it indicates to me that they are just dumping any old thing that someone else has recommended.

Also backed up by shiz's repeated daft interjections asking if anyone has yet contradicted something they have said, which had no credibility, definition, or even description.

One problem with the concept of social transition is that it is not symmetrical.

A man wearing a dress or makeup raises eyebrows but if a woman has not taken steps to make obvious physical changes, its difficult to perceive that any transition has taken place.

The same is true of names.

And personally, it indicates to me that they are just dumping any old thing that someone else has recommended.

Yes, the lack of engagement with the content of the links is striking.

Apologies, need to correct an omission from my post of 17.30:

The study failed to find significant differences between the socially-transitioned transgender group, a group of their siblings and an age-matched unrelated, non-trans control group for measures of depression.

But as the next paragraph said, the study did find higher levels of anxiety in socially-transitioned trans children.

@30PercentRecycled

For the lurkers, that last link from Shiz was nothing to do with conversion therapy.

The study was done 5 years ago. It studied no child beyond the age of 14.

I've reproduced the abstract below. You may note that the conclusions do not follow from the results and method stated. Surprising.

Children deserve better than this.

Objective
Social transitions are increasingly common for transgender children. A social transition involves a child presenting to other people as a member of the “opposite” gender in all contexts (e.g., wearing clothes and using pronouns of that gender). Little is known about the well-being of socially transitioned transgender children. This study examined self-reported depression, anxiety, and self-worth in socially transitioned transgender children compared with 2 control groups: age- and gender-matched controls and siblings of transgender children.

Method
As part of a longitudinal study (TransYouth Project), children (9–14 years old) and their parents completed measurements of depression and anxiety (n = 63 transgender children, n = 63 controls, n = 38 siblings). Children (6–14 years old; n = 116 transgender children, n = 122 controls, n = 72 siblings) also reported on their self-worth. Mental health and self-worth were compared across groups.

Results
Transgender children reported depression and self-worth that did not differ from their matched-control or sibling peers ( p = .311), and they reported marginally higher anxiety ( p = .076). Compared with national averages, transgender children showed typical rates of depression ( p = .290) and marginally higher rates of anxiety ( p = .096). Parents similarly reported that their transgender children experienced more anxiety than children in the control groups ( p = .002) and rated their transgender children as having equivalent levels of depression ( p = .728).

Conclusion
These findings are in striking contrast to previous work with gender-nonconforming children who had not socially transitioned, which found very high rates of depression and anxiety. These findings lessen concerns from previous work that parents of socially transitioned children could be systematically underreporting mental health problems.

All the scientists are wrong again - tsk tsk.

But as you seem to enjoy science papers, you don't have one showing that conversion therapy is either harmless or beneficial to trans people rather than harmful do you? I've been waiting for one all week.

But as you seem to enjoy science papers, you don't have one showing that conversion therapy is either harmless or beneficial to trans people rather than harmful do you? I've been waiting for one all week.

Still ignoring whether Julie Serano's gender identity is harmful to Serano, tho Shiz?

No one is benefited by a gender identity that claims the concept of trafficked women is arousing.

This is a really interesting thread.

From my pov the op's determination to act like a barrister in refusing to accept the nuance from posters here but insisting that the core statement of their OP stands uncontested is the very definition of a pyrrhic victory.

In the meantime to an external person like myself reading, it has served to very much clarify the concerns of this board in relation to trans children and how most mumsnetters neither "deny the existence" of trans people nor wish them harm, as has so often been claimed.

I wonder if the OP recognises that and feels they have a better understanding of Mumsnet posters' motivations as a result of this thread.

But what does socially transition mean? In the absence of any requirement to change a child’s behaviour (why can’t they just be themselves and behave as they want?) the ‘transition’ seems to be limited to an expectation that other people will affirm the child’s gender identity.

In the meantime to an external person like myself reading, it has served to very much clarify the concerns of this board in relation to trans children and how most mumsnetters neither "deny the existence" of trans people nor wish them harm, as has so often been claimed.

And we're increasingly seeing judges coming to the same conclusions. You can try to work your material like this, but judges are not going to fall for it.

I'm seeing people in the Mermaids area writing things like "Bell vs Tavistock - what went wrong?" And they genuinely seem surprised that everything's falling apart in court. We're not. We're happy, and relieved, but not really surprised.

If you've followed the thread this far, and have been digging into the linked articles (I haven't), I do suggest reading the Bell vs Tavistock judgment. It goes into the research presented and is very incisive.

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Bell-v-Tavistock-Judgment.pdf

I am waiting for your evidence that abusive conversion therapy has ever been done on trans children in the UK.

You can't study what hasn't been done.

I have searched for such evidence to bring back to this thread. None found. None.

Quite the opposite in fact. Lots of people saying they were affirmed when they should have been challenged. Clinicians saying they were pressured to only affirm never challenge even when they suspected child abuse or family homophobia to be the underlying cause.

So, I am still waiting for your evidence that abusive conversion therapy happens in the UK that could have been studied (or suppressed).

I can't find it. Can you?

@Psychobobble

This is a really interesting thread.

From my pov the op's determination to act like a barrister in refusing to accept the nuance from posters here but insisting that the core statement of their OP stands uncontested is the very definition of a pyrrhic victory.

In the meantime to an external person like myself reading, it has served to very much clarify the concerns of this board in relation to trans children and how most mumsnetters neither "deny the existence" of trans people nor wish them harm, as has so often been claimed.

I wonder if the OP recognises that and feels they have a better understanding of Mumsnet posters' motivations as a result of this thread.

And we're increasingly seeing judges coming to the same conclusions. You can try to work your material like this, but judges are not going to fall for it.

Indeed.

And, of course, the sexism that underpins the whole thing, leads an awful lot of people to think that mumsnetters can't possibly be judges! 😁

Or barristers, MPs, scientists, professors, and journalists.

Or, indeed, trans.

When you think sexism is working for you, and it's actually kicking you in the privates.

One thing this thread has highlighted to me is the lack of research into outcomes for gender non-conforming children in later life.

There would be a plenty of evidence. Lots of different levels of acceptance and / or treatments in different families in different decades. What a great source!

There are many adults alive today who were gender non-conforming as children. Depending on the age of the person today they may have grown up in a time period when homosexuality was illegal, or when it had become much more acceptable in the UK to be gay or lesbian. Recognition of bisexuality has evolved too, when I was a youngster there was a popular belief that people claiming to be bi were actually gays in denial.

Even decades ago some people became transsexuals. For decades a minority of people have presented as extreme butch or femme (sometimes in line with society's expectations sometimes opposite). Androgyny has been a thing for years.

Some gnc kids turned out to be homosexual, some straight. Some became gc later, some never did. Some feel repressed, some don't.

Some people socially "transitioned" to present as the opposite sex and reject their sex back when it wasn't called transition and wasn't assumed to be permanent (every child understood George from The Famous Five getting on for a hundred years ago).

The treatment pathways official and unofficial were different in the past.

There is such a potential wealth of data on outcomes for British gender non-conforming people that it is shocking there hasn't been large scale research that spanned the time of George Famous Five through Martina Navratilova up to Buck Angel and Elliot Page.

I wonder why not? Surely it would be a great help for differential diagnosis and treatment selection?

Could not agree more Datun.

Sexist people do seem to hear "mum's talking" and think coffee morning for a nice but dim dinner lady and laundry provider, who can only be interested in discussing prams, recipes and lipstick with other mums and even then they probably need some guidance from men and 22yo lib-fems to avoid being a dreadful "Karen" or a plain old silly billy.

Gah rogue apostrophe! "Mums talking" of course.

I’ve found this thread to be excellent, and very educational. Many thanks to patient posters - there are lurkers reading your well reasoned posts even if the OP isn’t.

Also place marking for when Evarish comes back with those links. That post on conversion therapy was very worrying. I would be very interested to learn more and to know what action Evarish has taken against such awful practices.

Very interesting thread, and I’m basically place marking here as there are some posts I’d like to read again.

Interesting programme on conversion therapy just finished now on BBC Radio 4.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000sz1y

Reasonably balanced, including some experts urging caution and the need to be very clear on what is included in the definition of "conversion therapy" means before legislating against it.

I've ploughed through a lot of the pages I'd missed, and amongst all Shizuku's repetitive guff, one sentence stood out:

Trans people are not deluded about their sex characteristics

And that's partly right: the old-school transexxuals many of us have known for years are not in the slightest bit deluded about the fact that they are male, and have male bodies and male genitals. For almost all of these, this is what triggers their dysphoria and leads them to seek to try and reject their masculinity.

However, Shizuku seems to be a bit sheltered from the current state of affairs, which has countless mainstream trans activists insisting that, for example, their male genitals are female, that they are "simply an enlarged clitoris" or "it's a woman's penis - completely different from a man's penis". For the tiny minority who have had bottom surgery, an alarming number are insisting that their surgically-contructed orifices are exactly the same in every biological aspect as a woman's vagina. If these trans activists truly believe this, then it is hard to find another word to describe this apart from "deluded".

@Evarish

Your two posts about conversion therapy are very interesting. I’d like to break them down if possible.

Firstly you’ve given examples of what conversion therapy might entail. Let’s look at those in reverse:

To wilderness programs in which LGBTQ+ youth are dubbed to be "troublesome", forced to physically straining activities under constant badgering until they relinquish the "troublesome behaviour" of existing as an LGBTQ+ person

Electrocutive torture, involving electrocuting someone while displaying 'unwanted' images or narrating 'unwanted' behaviour to them so they'll associate any thoughts regarding their sexuality or gender with trauma.

There is not a single poster here who would agree that either of these are anything other than barbaric practices that shouldn’t happen.

using any negative experience a person had in the past, and any diagnosis they have, as the 'reason' someone is trans or gay (such as fabrications that someone diagnosed with BPD only claiming to be trans because they want attention, or someone diagnosed with autism only being convinced they're gay because they're confused about friendship and relationships), and how recovering from trauma (even if the person wasn't or is no longer traumatized or the trauma is irrelevant to their orientation or gender) will 'cure' them from being trans or gay

Can you expand on this? Many detransitioners report their actions being in direct response to trauma or abuse. So while no one should force someone into the belief that the reason is definitely due to this, do you think it is ok to discuss trauma and the role it might be playing in the presentation of a teenage girl or young woman? Because experience tells us it does play a role.

cutting them off from support, isolating them, denying them any thought that they are their sexuality/gender, forcing them through stereotypical activities to reinforce their sexuality/gender, otherwise attacking the 'delusion' that they are their sexuality/gender.

What does “cutting off support” mean? Of course people should be supported, but if a teenager told the Trevor Project that “my parents stopped me going on Tumblr” and perceived that as “cutting off support” and hence “conversion therapy” is that a reasonable complaint? Does “cutting off support” only apply to cutting off those who are affirming everything?

I would agree that “forcing them through stereotypical activities” would be wrong, so by that measure doesn’t it also follow that forcibly viewing a child’s interest in opposite sex stereotypical activities as a sign they’re trans, even being part of the diagnostic criteria, also count as reinforcement? If a girl plays with trucks, isn’t the idea they’re a boy being reinforced by health professionals?

I would also wait to see your examples of what posters on Mumsnet have advocated. Withholding food to stop someone binding? That’s a pretty awful accusation, I hope you reported it or have a link to it. You have also used plenty of “you’re” in your examples, as if people here are directly addressing a trans person and as such are partaking in “conversion therapy” by a) engaging with them directly and b) posting the examples you gave.

If a person points out Eddie Izzard’s sex on Twitter and uses sex-based pronouns, are they partaking in conversion therapy?

Look forward to your replies and links.

I have been thinking more on this group of quotes from Evarish.

“Your birth gender is female so you’re a female.”
“You’re just saying this because you think it makes it easier to pick up women.”
“Going by different pronouns isn’t allowed here.”
"You're insecure because you're fat."
“You’re claiming to be trans because you like girls.”

Is this where someone alludes a statement that is reasonable and incontrovertible is not because of the statements around it?

Not only does it seem so, the implication is clear that posters are phobic for saying “Your birth gender is female so you’re a female.” .

It also is not hard to find statements that you cannot change sex all over Mumsnet, so the implication that the others are also common so the reader who has not spent a lot of time on Mumsnet needs to look no further?

Personally, I don’t agree with the last three statements, but neither have I seen them used on MN.

We already have one poster on this thread making up statements for others, I look forward to Evarish coming back to show us where those last three statements are made (with links so we can see the context) .

I think the pp may have been liberally reinterpreting things they heard said. For example
“You’re claiming to be trans because you like girls.”
Could be the fact that with watchful waiting, many trans identifying children desist and instead grow up into gay or lesbian adults. For a poster who thinks gender identity is innate, that person would only have been "claiming to be trans"; for gender critical posters that person's dysphoria was just as real as any other person's dysphoria, as dysphoria /is/ the feeling of discomfort with your body, rather than being a mismatch between sex and some internal gender switch of which discomfort is only a symptom.