Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

@Helleofabore

I had noticed that their is a history of deleted threads lately.

Again, it is a style of posting that doesn’t do anything but shine light on the intentions of the poster. And it comes across very clearly. I doubt readers cannot see it.

You mean the intention to present evidence that conversion therapy is harmful to trans people and the intention to ask if anyone has any evidence to the contrary?

Such maliciousness!

Shizuku:
Conversion therapy is a very simple concept, but let me give it to you again - it's any attempt to force a trans person's gender identity to change

Still no acknowledgement of or response to criticisms that 'gender identity' remains scientifically uncheckable and hence unsuitable as a foundational concept for scientific enquiry. Or, indeed, come to think of it, reasoned responses to any criticism of her posts and references.

This thread has, indeed, been salutary to follow. The OP seems to want to epitomise the very worst aspects of unreason and anti-scientific posturing on the internet. It is an ugly sight to see up close like this.

You haven’t clarified what conversion therapy includes, what it entailed for the people in the survey, how many people in the survey who reported it were doing so for gender rather than sexuality, nor what gender identity is to be sure we know what is meant to be being “converted”.

Trans conversion therapy uses identical methods as gay conversion therapy does. It goes from, and isn't limited to, "talk therapy",

• using any negative experience a person had in the past, and any diagnosis they have, as the 'reason' someone is trans or gay (such as fabrications that someone diagnosed with BPD only claiming to be trans because they want attention, or someone diagnosed with autism only being convinced they're gay because they're confused about friendship and relationships), and how recovering from trauma (even if the person wasn't or is no longer traumatized or the trauma is irrelevant to their orientation or gender) will 'cure' them from being trans or gay,

• cutting them off from support, isolating them, denying them any thought that they are their sexuality/gender, forcing them through stereotypical activities to reinforce their sexuality/gender, otherwise attacking the 'delusion' that they are their sexuality/gender.

To wilderness programs in which LGBTQ+ youth are dubbed to be "troublesome", forced to physically straining activities under constant badgering until they relinquish the "troublesome behaviour" of existing as an LGBTQ+ person,

Electrocutive torture, involving electrocuting someone while displaying 'unwanted' images or narrating 'unwanted' behaviour to them so they'll associate any thoughts regarding their sexuality or gender with trauma.

This thread is beginning to feel abusive - as if women have been carefully and meticulously stating their cases with nuance and a great deal of patience and OP has been coming in, not listening, riding roughshod and stating we are wrong because we are not playing their game.

I agree.

It is enlightening, isn't it? If the intention was genuinely to engage, I am sure by now that between us all we would have had a really interesting discussion. But instead, I think that there has been a display of prejudiced thinking that seems to block the nuance.

I, for one, am not going to keep pointing out what has been said and should be clear here.

@9toenails

Shizuku: Conversion therapy is a very simple concept, but let me give it to you again - it's any attempt to force a trans person's gender identity to change

Still no acknowledgement of or response to criticisms that 'gender identity' remains scientifically uncheckable and hence unsuitable as a foundational concept for scientific enquiry. Or, indeed, come to think of it, reasoned responses to any criticism of her posts and references.

This thread has, indeed, been salutary to follow. The OP seems to want to epitomise the very worst aspects of unreason and anti-scientific posturing on the internet. It is an ugly sight to see up close like this.

"Still no acknowledgement of or response to criticisms that 'gender identity' remains scientifically uncheckable and hence unsuitable as a foundational concept for scientific enquiry."

Amazing how thousands of doctors and scientists are able to study this mysterious thing isn't it. But as I said a few posts ago, you don't need to understand what it is in order to observe that attempts to force people to change whatever it is are harmful.

"The OP seems to want to epitomise the very worst aspects of unreason and anti-scientific posturing on the internet."

Presenting evidence that conversion therapy is harmful to trans people and asking for evidence to the contrary is the worst of unreason and anti-scientific posturing?

@Helleofabore

This thread is beginning to feel abusive - as if women have been carefully and meticulously stating their cases with nuance and a great deal of patience and OP has been coming in, not listening, riding roughshod and stating we are wrong because we are not playing their game.

I agree.

It is enlightening, isn't it? If the intention was genuinely to engage, I am sure by now that between us all we would have had a really interesting discussion. But instead, I think that there has been a display of prejudiced thinking that seems to block the nuance.

I, for one, am not going to keep pointing out what has been said and should be clear here.

You know what you should do? You should just post the evidence that conversion therapy is either harmless or beneficial to trans people rather than harmful then just walk away.

@Evarish

You haven’t clarified what conversion therapy includes, what it entailed for the people in the survey, how many people in the survey who reported it were doing so for gender rather than sexuality, nor what gender identity is to be sure we know what is meant to be being “converted”.

Trans conversion therapy uses identical methods as gay conversion therapy does. It goes from, and isn't limited to, "talk therapy",

• using any negative experience a person had in the past, and any diagnosis they have, as the 'reason' someone is trans or gay (such as fabrications that someone diagnosed with BPD only claiming to be trans because they want attention, or someone diagnosed with autism only being convinced they're gay because they're confused about friendship and relationships), and how recovering from trauma (even if the person wasn't or is no longer traumatized or the trauma is irrelevant to their orientation or gender) will 'cure' them from being trans or gay,

• cutting them off from support, isolating them, denying them any thought that they are their sexuality/gender, forcing them through stereotypical activities to reinforce their sexuality/gender, otherwise attacking the 'delusion' that they are their sexuality/gender.

To wilderness programs in which LGBTQ+ youth are dubbed to be "troublesome", forced to physically straining activities under constant badgering until they relinquish the "troublesome behaviour" of existing as an LGBTQ+ person,

Electrocutive torture, involving electrocuting someone while displaying 'unwanted' images or narrating 'unwanted' behaviour to them so they'll associate any thoughts regarding their sexuality or gender with trauma.

That is very helpful clarification.

No-one is advocating any of those interventions for trans people. Therefore, the OP's request that we provide proof these interventions are not harmful is redundant.

Shizuku:
Amazing how thousands of doctors and scientists are able to study this mysterious thing isn't it. But as I said a few posts ago, you don't need to understand what it is in order to observe that attempts to force people to change whatever it is are harmful.

The thing is, I read something like this, and think, well, you do not understand ... but then, I recall, past attempts to explain have gone nowhere, and generally you have been unwilling to engage at all. So I stop trying.

The best explanation of your behaviour is that you have no wish to engage, but just wish to be a nuisance. As I said, this is an ugly sight seen up close.

No-one is advocating any of those interventions for trans people. Therefore, the OP's request that we provide proof these interventions are not harmful is redundant.

Do tell if any of this sounds familiar with arguments used towards trans youth here:

What leading “gender critical”therapists recommend: isolate them, cut them off from support, don’t use their preferred name or pronouns, deny their identity, try to make them accept and love being female, and attack the “delusion”.

Never use their preferred name or pronouns.

They looked for anything they could blame for being transgender.

“Your birth gender is female so you’re a female.”
“You’re just saying this because you think it makes it easier to pick up women.”
“Going by different pronouns isn’t allowed here.”
"You're insecure because you're fat."
“You’re claiming to be trans because you like girls.”

Withholding privileges if they're not cooperative enough, such as denying food when found wearing a binder.

It includes any attempt by someone to force a trans person's gender identity to change

Could you post links to some personal accounts of gender identity conversion therapy of the kind that you would like to see banned, as experienced by trans people in the UK?

@30PercentRecycled

It includes any attempt by someone to force a trans person's gender identity to change

Could you post links to some personal accounts of gender identity conversion therapy of the kind that you would like to see banned, as experienced by trans people in the UK?

Given your history with trans people, yes, I could, but no, I will not link you to personal accounts of people enduring trans conversion therapy.

The US is a very religious country - I don't think you can apply their stats on conversion therapy to the U.K.
we have enough societal problems without getting embroiled in US ones, especially as there are enoughof a population without us and they won't give a monkeys what other countries think.

Gender identity is a person's own innate sense of what sex they are. The scientific consensus is that it's biological in origin. But you don't need to understand what it is in order to observe that attempts to force people to change whatever it is are harmful.

Have you read this article which 9toenails posted a link to earlier in the thread?

arcdigital.media/what-is-gender-identity-10ce0da71999

Could you address the points I made in an earlier post about this article, and those of 9toenails which I quoted in my post:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4187324-Conversion-Therapy-and-a-Survey-of-25-896-LGBTQ-youth?msgid=105555777

Using the APA's definition of gender identity (which is the same as the definition when it was originally defined by Stoller in the 1960s), a person's 'gender identity' must, by definition, match their physical sex, since it refers to the knowledge of what sex they are (apart from in a small number of cases of intersex people in which it is only an apparent match - this is not relevant when discussing transgenderism).

If you disagree with this definition, please will you define clearly what you mean by gender identity and how this can be objectively observed in an individual. If such a person is to have their 'gender identity' changed, there must be something called a gender identity which can be objectively observed, so that it would be clear whether the conversion therapy had, in fact, succeeded. How would this be verified?

If it is not something which can be objectively observed, and amounts only to statements a person makes, such as 'I am a woman' or 'I am a man', and perhaps their own thoughts (which obviously can't be observed) is conversion therapy actually simply attempting to restrict that person's freedom of speech and thought?

@Evarish

No-one is advocating any of those interventions for trans people. Therefore, the OP's request that we provide proof these interventions are not harmful is redundant.

Do tell if any of this sounds familiar with arguments used towards trans youth here:

What leading “gender critical”therapists recommend: isolate them, cut them off from support, don’t use their preferred name or pronouns, deny their identity, try to make them accept and love being female, and attack the “delusion”.

Never use their preferred name or pronouns.

They looked for anything they could blame for being transgender.

“Your birth gender is female so you’re a female.”
“You’re just saying this because you think it makes it easier to pick up women.”
“Going by different pronouns isn’t allowed here.”
"You're insecure because you're fat."
“You’re claiming to be trans because you like girls.”

Withholding privileges if they're not cooperative enough, such as denying food when found wearing a binder.

I can't see a link in your post to support these allegations.

I can't see a link in your post to support these allegations.

I'm on my mobile phone. Will be more than happy to link to numerous accounts of users here using the same arguments later.

@Evarish

I can't see a link in your post to support these allegations.

I'm on my mobile phone. Will be more than happy to link to numerous accounts of users here using the same arguments later.

Thanks. Please @ me when you post these so that I don't miss it. I'm particularly concerned that you say people are recommending things like isolating vulnerable young people, denying them food, making offensive comments about their weight and not giving them any support. Nobody should be recommending these things.

Evarish

Are you saying that Mumsnet Feminist boards are saying those things?

Although, yes, the first one would be logical if you mean birth 'sex'. Because, no one is denying sex exists.

But the others? On posts? On this board? I too would like to see these examples.

Imagine a line.

At one end of the line are the words 'conversion therapy' and at the other end of the line is 'affirmation therapy'.

In between is a big space called 'talking therapy'.

'Conversion therapy' here refers specifically to electric shock, aversion therapy, beatings, exorcisms. The message is: "Your thoughts about your body are wrong."

Affirmation therapy at the other end of the line refers specifically to puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, amputation and plastic surgery. The message is: "Your body is wrong for your thoughts."

In between these two poles is a whole lot of potential exploration through personal reflection and talking therapy.

"What does gender identity mean to you? How does gender differ from sex stereotypes for you? How does your ADHD/ASD/OCD/ED/depression/anxiety/abuse/adoption/trauma/bullying/sexuality relate to this identity? For how long have you felt this way? Anything contributed particularly to these ideas becoming dominant now? How does your friendship group feel about your identity? What kind of online support or advice are you getting? Can we explore the difference you think it would make for you if you were to wake up in the opposite body tomorrow? What currently relieves your dysphoria? Here are other non medical strategies that people with dysphoria have tried - which might work for you? What are the practical challenges you think you will face if you transition? And if you don't? Etc, etc, etc"

Curiosity. Keeping outcomes open. Support.

No one is saying that the brutal type of 'conversion therapy' at the end of the line in this model is good.

Lots of us are suggesting that 'affirmation therapy' in this model is also harmful, particularly to children, teenagers and young people, as we have seen evidenced in the Keira Bell case.

Some parents might also draw a harder line on Internet access, particularly if their kids are spending a lot of time online and their real world relationships are suffering. Parents may not feel comfortable with aspects of social transition like name changes and some might resist their daughter binding.

What they and the majority of us, I imagine, would like to see is an enormous investment in the middle ground, the third way of talking through issues, supporting vulnerable young people, helping them to come through puberty with their adult bodies, fertility and sexual pleasure intact.
It’s good to talk. There is no rush.

So many of the detransitioners talk about how little talking therapy they received pre medical/surgical transition and how they wish they had had more challenge from doctors etc. They are telling us that they have been actively harmed by the current affirmation model.

Psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, counsellors need, therefore, to be able to help and question and support, even if it leads to persisting, even if it leads to desisting. They cannot express curiosity and provide helpful challenge if they are told that to even question gender identity is conversion therapy.

What we are resisting is bundling up and lumping the middle way of 'talking therapy' together with 'conversion therapy' and calling it all conversion therapy if it might potentially lead to a change in gender identity.

We don't want a model that says
"Your thoughts are wrong so let's change your thoughts."
Nor do we want
"Your body is wrong so let's change your body."
But rather
"Let's gently explore what is going on as you form your identity, (particularly in the light of the other challenges you face) and help you find ways in the meantime to think more kindly about your body."

Given your history with trans people, yes, I could, but no, I will not link you to personal accounts of people enduring trans conversion therapy.

1. What? You don't know me. I have zero negative history with trans people in my life.

2. Surely there are stories in the public domain?
   I am astonished that harm like this could be done to trans people and none of them made any public complaint. Receipts please.

Excellent post aNewCreation
Nobody here is advocating for the conversion therapy described above; however that does not mean that we believe that mandatory affirmation is automatically the right answer. As I said above: every young person deserves a bespoke approach which includes discussion and exploration of their thought processes, pathway etc. Because every young person is an individual and the stakes are high: there is a great potential for harm if a blanket approach is adopted for all whether that be blanket "conversion" or blanket "affirmation with medical pathway". Both produce casualties.

@Shizuku

"I’m just going to ignore you and not clarify anything or answer any questions"

There is only one question to answer here - is there any evidence that conversion therapy for trans people is either harmless or beneficial rather that harmful?

Just post the evidence and we can all move on.

Julia Serano is upfront about fetishising women's oppression. In terms of them being 'good for only one thing'.

You can't possibly be suggesting that this gender identity is beneficial to Serano? How on earth could it be?

Changing that gender identity can only, ever, be beneficial and a positive thing for Serano.

Very well said ANewCreation!

FAOD Shizuku it's clear from countless comments on FWR, that we neither approve of the type of approach described as conversion therapy by ANewCreation nor do we deem such practices beneficial or harmless to anyone. We are talking about the middle ground, called talking therapy above, when we talk of psychological treatment for children diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

Can you acknowledge that vital distinction, Shizuku? And since you appeal to authority in most of your comments, can you let us know what you think of the ultimate authority in treating gender dysphoria in children with puberty blockers, the experts who pioneered the Dutch Approach? Their protocol includes an intense, thorough and long-lasting psychological assessment and treatment approach, made up of amongst other things talking therapy, in order to ascertain whether a child's gender dysphoria has underlying causes that need to be addressed before any decision about a medical transition can be made.

If you disagree with ANewCreation's definition of conversion therapy, do you therefore consider the Dutch architects of the Affirmation Approach to engage in conversion therapy?

@ANewCreation

Imagine a line.

At one end of the line are the words 'conversion therapy' and at the other end of the line is 'affirmation therapy'.

In between is a big space called 'talking therapy'.

'Conversion therapy' here refers specifically to electric shock, aversion therapy, beatings, exorcisms. The message is: "Your thoughts about your body are wrong."

Affirmation therapy at the other end of the line refers specifically to puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, amputation and plastic surgery. The message is: "Your body is wrong for your thoughts."

In between these two poles is a whole lot of potential exploration through personal reflection and talking therapy.

"What does gender identity mean to you? How does gender differ from sex stereotypes for you? How does your ADHD/ASD/OCD/ED/depression/anxiety/abuse/adoption/trauma/bullying/sexuality relate to this identity? For how long have you felt this way? Anything contributed particularly to these ideas becoming dominant now? How does your friendship group feel about your identity? What kind of online support or advice are you getting? Can we explore the difference you think it would make for you if you were to wake up in the opposite body tomorrow? What currently relieves your dysphoria? Here are other non medical strategies that people with dysphoria have tried - which might work for you? What are the practical challenges you think you will face if you transition? And if you don't? Etc, etc, etc"

Curiosity. Keeping outcomes open. Support.

No one is saying that the brutal type of 'conversion therapy' at the end of the line in this model is good.

Lots of us are suggesting that 'affirmation therapy' in this model is also harmful, particularly to children, teenagers and young people, as we have seen evidenced in the Keira Bell case.

Some parents might also draw a harder line on Internet access, particularly if their kids are spending a lot of time online and their real world relationships are suffering. Parents may not feel comfortable with aspects of social transition like name changes and some might resist their daughter binding.

What they and the majority of us, I imagine, would like to see is an enormous investment in the middle ground, the third way of talking through issues, supporting vulnerable young people, helping them to come through puberty with their adult bodies, fertility and sexual pleasure intact.
It’s good to talk. There is no rush.

So many of the detransitioners talk about how little talking therapy they received pre medical/surgical transition and how they wish they had had more challenge from doctors etc. They are telling us that they have been actively harmed by the current affirmation model.

Psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, counsellors need, therefore, to be able to help and question and support, even if it leads to persisting, even if it leads to desisting. They cannot express curiosity and provide helpful challenge if they are told that to even question gender identity is conversion therapy.

What we are resisting is bundling up and lumping the middle way of 'talking therapy' together with 'conversion therapy' and calling it all conversion therapy if it might potentially lead to a change in gender identity.

We don't want a model that says
"Your thoughts are wrong so let's change your thoughts."
Nor do we want
"Your body is wrong so let's change your body."
But rather
"Let's gently explore what is going on as you form your identity, (particularly in the light of the other challenges you face) and help you find ways in the meantime to think more kindly about your body."

www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

"Conclusion: These findings are in striking contrast to previous work with gender-nonconforming children who had not socially transitioned, which found very high rates of depression and anxiety. These findings lessen concerns from previous work that parents of socially transitioned children could be systematically underreporting mental health problems."

The same Julia Serrano in these quotes?

twitter.com/gnarlycharz/status/1368703619684589569?s=21

If it is, not sure why they are given credibility really.

Just to clarify, I don’t think I would be able to post the quote here without a deletion. Or any of the other quotes mentioned in the tweet above.

But they are all by very prominent people and need to be acknowledged.

@CharlieParley

Very well said ANewCreation!

FAOD Shizuku it's clear from countless comments on FWR, that we neither approve of the type of approach described as conversion therapy by ANewCreation nor do we deem such practices beneficial or harmless to anyone. We are talking about the middle ground, called talking therapy above, when we talk of psychological treatment for children diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

Can you acknowledge that vital distinction, Shizuku? And since you appeal to authority in most of your comments, can you let us know what you think of the ultimate authority in treating gender dysphoria in children with puberty blockers, the experts who pioneered the Dutch Approach? Their protocol includes an intense, thorough and long-lasting psychological assessment and treatment approach, made up of amongst other things talking therapy, in order to ascertain whether a child's gender dysphoria has underlying causes that need to be addressed before any decision about a medical transition can be made.

If you disagree with ANewCreation's definition of conversion therapy, do you therefore consider the Dutch architects of the Affirmation Approach to engage in conversion therapy?

That is obviously a ‘no’ then!

Thanks to those trying to keep getting the message across, it is now crystal clear to all readers I’m sure.

I suggest we don’t bother trying to point out the obvious anymore. I am not sure how many more ways it can be explained. It must take grim determination is all I can say. It is blatant.