Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

given Susan Evans quit in 2004

She says she was there until 2007.

Between 2003 and 2007, I, Susan Evans, worked for the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) at the Tavistock Clinic

quillette.com/2021/02/04/first-do-no-harm-a-new-model-for-treating-trans-identified-children/

given Susan Evans quit in 2004, 4 years prior to puberty blockers first getting prescribed at the Tavistock (in 2008)

For those who like I are sticklers about lying accuracy, Susan Evans says she worked at GIDS from 2003-2007, and continued working elsewhere at the Tavistock after 2007.

This BBC article says

In [Dr Taylor's] report, which was published in 2006, he said puberty blockers might be the best course of action for some, but added that in his view young people needed a period of explorative therapy first.

The document also detailed concerns from some staff about the speed at which some young people were being referred for treatment with puberty blockers.

Parsing Evarish's words very carefully, I'm wondering if it hinges on the word "prescribed". Was there a switch from referring to direct prescription? Whatever, concerns were being expressed in 2005, while Susan Evans was there, about puberty blockers being given too easily.

Parsing Evarish's words very carefully, I'm wondering if it hinges on the word "prescribed". Was there a switch from referring to direct prescription?

GIDS don't prescribe hormone blockers, they refer children to other clinics for this treatment.

Here is a Freedom of Information request asking 'How many children (under the age of 18) have been treated with puberty hormone blockers at the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) in each respective year from 2009 to 2019 inclusive?'

Response: 'The prescription and administration of hormone blockers is carried out, not by the Trust, but by other NHS bodies, such as endocrine clinics and primary care providers, following referral from the Trust. The records of such treatment are held on individual patient files and the Trust does not maintain a central register of such information from which the data you request could be collated'

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/documents/1866/FOI_19-20313_Puberty_Hormone_Blockers.pdf

@Evarish

given Susan Evans quit in 2004, 4 years prior to puberty blockers first getting prescribed at the Tavistock (in 2008)

Mind you, the confusion being that she claims she left because she 'witnessed a 16 year old being approved for hormone blocking drugs after "just a handful" of consultation sessions', when puberty blockers weren't prescribed to children until 2008, following a conference in September that year, ergo she's not even telling the truth about why she left the Tavistock, let alone the activism that followed an event that never took place.

Do you have any evidence that puberty blockers weren't prescribed to children before 2008? The early intervention study was for children under 16. I had assumed that hormone blockers (and possibly cross sex hormones) were already being prescribed to older children (16 and 17).

But this thread is supposed to be about conversion therapy, so I suggest you start your own thread about prescribing practices at the Tavistock if that's what you want to discuss Evarish.

GIDS don't prescribe hormone blockers, they refer children to other clinics for this treatment.

Thanks, that was what I thought. But I was checking the Keira Bell judgment for some dates, and saw them talking about "prescribing" there, so I wasn't sure. I saw this:

22. Until 2011 PBs were only available at GIDS for those aged 16 or older. In 2011 PBs started to be prescribed for those aged 12-15 and in mid-puberty.

But I should have looked back a section to where it was more specific:

21. ... they will be referred by GIDS ... for consultation and/or physical assessment with endocrinologists with a view to being prescribed PBs.

I guess the 2008 above may just be totally imaginary, like the 2004 was. I was just fishing around trying to figure out if it referred to anything - I know there's a common tactic of using a "real" number or date but changing what it refers to.

@Evarish I am still confused about the apparent lack of middle aged transmen. If they actually do exist in large numbers as you claim, why is it that I do not see them represented in politics, in the media, or see them in day to day life in the numbers that I see transwomen? Surely, if transmen are men, and enjoy the privileges of that gender, they should be much more apparent, if they exist in the same numbers?

Surely, if transmen are men, and enjoy the privileges of that gender, they should be much more apparent, if they exist in the same numbers?

And also, if ROGD doesn't exist and all those teenage girls are 'really trans', there should be about 3 times as many middle aged transmen as middle aged transwomen. Following the pattern of the middle aged transwomen, most of these transmen should be married to men and mothers of children. Where are they all?

And also, if ROGD doesn't exist and all those teenage girls are 'really trans', there should be about 3 times as many middle aged transmen as middle aged transwomen.

Nellodee, i suspect both- there are fewer and they are underrepresented.
Maybe something to do with their childhood female socialisation, or the misogyny of the movement in general being applied to not listening to female voices even with a he/him badge on.
Maybe because having experienced being female, fewer are inclined to toe the party line of policies putting women at risk.

Maybe we could have a census and find out? Oh no, validation is more important than accurate data. If the census shows low numbers of middle aged transmen, activists will just claim they put their sex as male and didn't choose to fill in the gender question.

Anyone found any evidence at all yet that conversion therapy is either harmless or beneficial to trans kids?

Well, yes, you stated it yourself.

The unaffirmed children avoid puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery. That's a HUGE benefit to them in later life.

Did you know that puberty blockers damage IQ because the brain does not mature as it should? Higher IQ is a big win for the children who are not affirmed in their trans identity.

The damage done by affirmation came out quite clearly in the Keira Bell case. You could read what the judge said. You could read what the gender identity service said themselves!

and a fair amount are living their lives contentedly with no one being aware they're trans (either because it's irrelevant or because they're intentionally not sharing being transgender).

Do you have a source for this “fair amount” @Evarish ? If a “fair amount” are living contentedly as adults, surely that demonstrates there is absolutely no need for a “fair amount” of teenage girls to medically transition as children?

RE: Conversion therapy - possibly the real conversion therapy is being revealed by @RIP4Nutmeg on Twitter & via Substack - revealing parents of 3 and 4 year old children who are "socially transitioning" their children - one because she prefers to play with boys. Therefore must be a boy ...

I'm open-mouthed and too shocked to be angry (yet).

@30PercentRecycled

Anyone found any evidence at all yet that conversion therapy is either harmless or beneficial to trans kids?

Well, yes, you stated it yourself.

The unaffirmed children avoid puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery. That's a HUGE benefit to them in later life.

Did you know that puberty blockers damage IQ because the brain does not mature as it should? Higher IQ is a big win for the children who are not affirmed in their trans identity.

The damage done by affirmation came out quite clearly in the Keira Bell case. You could read what the judge said. You could read what the gender identity service said themselves!

Are you sure?

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/145/2/e20191725

"Conclusions: Among transgender adults in the United States who have wanted pubertal suppression, access to this treatment is associated with lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation. This study strengthens recommendations by the Endocrine Society and WPATH for this treatment to be made available for transgender adolescents who want it."

Jack Turban’s study shows adults who were on puberty blockers as children were much more likely to have been hospitalised in the prior 12 months compared to those that weren’t on puberty blockers.

This study doesn’t strengthen anything, it makes it clear that good mental health outcomes are not guaranteed.

Hospitalised for a suicide attempt, I should clarify.

Another paper found "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population."

The authors are careful to say the increased risks might not be linked to transition.

theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-was-lyle-shelton-right-about-transgender-people-and-a-higher-suicide-risk-after-surgery-55573

shizuku do you have any evidence that reduced suicide ideation leads to reduced suicides? What about long term outcomes for these children? I don't think a single out of context finding is a good scientific argument, personally

@Shizuku

Apologies for jumping in. I am one of those lurkers, but not the kind you specified. I had another question for you, if you would be so kind.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2020.1869126 says, "One particular subcase within core detransitions concerns people with autism spectrum disorders (ASD). Anecdotal reports (e.g., Barnes & Cohen, 2019; Post-Trans, n.d.; Prestidge, n.d.) indicate that the rate of detransitioned individuals who fall within the autistic spectrum is higher than one would expect in the general population. In this regard, emerging evidence suggests a co-occurrence of GD and ASD (de Vries, Noens, Cohen-Kettenis, van Berckelaer-Onnes, & Doreleijers, 2010; Glidden, Bouman, Jones, & Arcelus, 2016; van der Miesen, Hurley, & de Vries, 2016), which may be related to an elevation in intense/obsessional interests around gender-related themes (VanderLaan et al., 2014; Zucker et al., 2017). The high number of individuals with GD who appear to fall in the autistic spectrum may explain why a significant number of core detransitioners also present autistic traits."

I know they say evidence is ancedotal, but could you speculate as to why so many folks with ASD are a large part of the cohort of detransitioners? Also, how do you treat gender dysphoria in a population that is particularly suspetible to transactivists like yourself who promise people who are on the social outs a solution to their problems?

The article also discusses how detransitioners had a desire for but did not know how to ask for non-affirmative treatment. From what I understand of your post, you would wish to make anything but affirmative treatment illegal. How does the specific desire for non affirmative treatment fit into this model? Patients are not allowed to seek care to alleviate their distress? Wouldn't that lead to more detransitioners later with no ability to get treatment and serve to protect interested parties from being culpable by making it impossible for people to seek treatment?

If gender identity is universal, why does a study of detransitioners in Spain find the largest cohort of detransitioners is transgirls/born male transition to girl and detransitioning back to boy? This appears to contradict experiences in the UK? Does the differences in gender suggest that gender identity is based on culturally specific gender roles based on historic sex based cultural demands around reproduction?

The study also found a detransition rate of 1.8% in Valencia compared to 2% in Sweden and 8% in the US. Are there cultural aspects to gender identity and treatment that are causing variance in these numbers? Or is the reason purely clinical in that the US appears to have less mental health care and supports affirmative only care , which causes higher rates of detransitioners? What should UK participants take away from those differences by country?

Also, can't find the study but i recall reading one that said that children of gay and lesbian couples were less likely to have children coming out as trans than children of heterosexual couples. My recall was the conclusion of the study was that this was because children in families of same-sex parents were less likely to be constantly exposed to damaging sex based gender norms and were allowed to be more gender non-conforming. Can you explain why there is a difference in prevalence based on sex based partners of their parents? Doesn't this seem to support an idea that gender identity is based on socialization and not on inate identity?

Apologies to the regulars on thread for jumping in and possibly derailing. Most places I hang out are very, "Kill the four letter T word!" and questioning is not allowed.

Most places I hang out are very, "Kill the four letter T word!" and questioning is not allowed.

Why would anyone hang out in places like that?

Did you post the wrong link @Shizuku? I couldn't see anything in that paper about the effects of blocking puberty on the developing brain and whether or not children who were given this treatment suffered a drop in IQ, which is what was mentioned in the post you replied to.

Debating the wisdom of continuing to engage with an OP who persistently misrepresents scientific evidence, but here goes.

The question of whether or not treatment with puberty blockers improves mental health is a red herring. Puberty blockers cause significant long-term detrimental cognitive and physical effects. Psychotherapy, on the other hand, does not cause these detrimental effects. Therefore, puberty blockers can only be justified as a treatment if their effects on mental health are so much better than the effect of psychotherapy that the benefits of their use outweigh the harm caused by their adverse cognitive and physical effects. You can only demonstrate this by comparing the effects of puberty blockers with the effects of psychological therapy on mental health outcomes.

The Turban study the OP cites doesn't show this; puberty blockers are the only treatment investigated. So by definition this study doesn't present evidence that can justify use of puberty blockers.

Interestingly, this study could have presented that evidence from the data they had available, had they wished to. The study analysed data from survey responses of trans adults. Data on use of puberty blockers were obtained from a question asking what types of trans health care survey respondents had received in the past. One of the response options was "Puberty blocking hormones", and the authors used responses to this option to divide participants into two groups (those who had received puberty blockers and those who hadn't) for further detailed analysis. One of the other response options was "Counselling/therapy". The authors could have repeated exactly the same statistical analysis for associations between psychological therapy and mental health - they had the data available - and then compared the effects of puberty blockers and psychological therapy. paper. But it seems that either they didn't run that analysis, or they ran it but then chose not to include it in the paper.

Great post June! Welcome!

Awiltu
"The Turban study the OP cites doesn't show this; puberty blockers are the only treatment investigated. So by definition this study doesn't present evidence that can justify use of puberty blockers."

Yes. And always handy to remind ourselves that according to Open Payments Search Tool

openpaymentsdata.cms.gov/physician/3058224

used to track payments made by drug and medical device companies to physicians and teaching hospitals, Jack Turban has received at least $15,000 (US) from Arbor Pharmaceuticals, manufacturers of Triptodur™, (triptorelin) which, through extended release injectable suspension, has been shown to arrest or reverse the clinical signs of puberty, in cases of precocious puberty – the exact purpose Arbor advocates Triptodur for.

As someone who has worked in autism education for many years, one of the most important things I have learned is that "if you know one person with autism, you know one person with autism". It is frankly insulting to hear the word "autism" and assume that person will need a visual timetable and social stories and that will make all their problems in education go away. Each autistic young person needs their situation assessing and a bespoke approach taken to meeting their needs. This doesn't mean that no autistic child benefits from social stories and a visual timetable, but they sure as heck all don't, because they are individuals.
Humans like to categorise and simplify but life isn't like that. "One size" rarely "fits all".

I don't see that young people experiencing gender identity issues are any different. How is it good practice to assume an identical aetiology and identical "treatment" with no assessment of the individual's story, history, distress, needs etc? To me it makes absolute sense that a bespoke assessment and package must be made for each young person. Of course for some this may be medical transition, and for others it may not be. I cannot see why anyone would think it logical to argue that all trans people are a homogenous group with identical treatment needs when anyone with eyes and a brain can see we have several different cohorts here. Can anyone explain?

Bonkers to advocate for a one size fits all. And negligent to ignore the differences in medicalisation between the sexes.

And negligent to ignore the known effects of puberty blockers on any young person but particularly females.

I am never surprised though to see just who are those advocating for it though. It is usually predictable.