Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

"So how do you account for the 4000% increase in kids showing up at gender clinics?"

That's what happens when people feel safe to be themselves.

@Shizuku

You mistake is thinking that sex is purely about reproduction.

Pray do explain what it is about then ......

You mistake is thinking that sex is purely about reproduction.

It is purely about reproduction.

Shizuku
The best thing to do is simply dismantle their arguments.

Waiting ...

... ... ... But not, I admit, holding my breath.

But perhaps you will complain that all 55 peer-reviewed studies in that link are invalid?

Not a single one of those studies looks at the recent phenomenon of female children, puberty blockers and testosterone and none of them been published later than 2017.

Do you have anything to tell us that puberty blockers and testosterone for female children leads to good outcomes with low regret?

Shizuku in your explanation of how sex is not purely about reproduction please explain how your conclusions can be generalised to other species including cows, spiders, and apple trees.

Is that different from those who haven't been through conversion therapy? I would imagine most people who are different from the norm have mental health issues.

@NotBadConsidering

Doctors working with trans people have found that affirmation is beneficial and the opposite is detrimental.

This is a lie. Doctors at the Tavistock have actually found:

no differences between baseline and later outcomes for overall psychological distress as rated by parents and young people, nor for self-harm.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0243894

They also found:

the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts in that comparison.

ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.1778correction

Medical affirmative therapy for trans people does not improve psychological outcomes, for adults or children and results in physical harm.

"Young people experienced little change in psychological functioning across the study."

That's pretty much what you'd expect. Puberty blockers are a status quo drug - the child doesn't make progress with their transition during puberty blockade, they just have time to think.

How did the cohort of 44 young people with persistent and severe GD who were not treated with GnRHa fare? I couldn't see the control group mention in the study.

@Shizuku

"So how do you account for the 4000% increase in kids showing up at gender clinics?"

That's what happens when people feel safe to be themselves.

So can you explain how female children are feeling safe to be themselves to transition, but adult women haven’t accounted for such a rise in adult clinics?

And if it’s safe for them to be themselves, does that mean the UK is not an inherently dangerous place for trans people?

Oh. And if you are Australian, you know that the Children’s hospitals are just that. Up to 18.

So, have they tracked further or just like the U.K. clinics and simply stopped tracking when the patient transfers to the adult clinic.

Do you have actual experience with the Australian system?

@Tibtom

Shizuku in your explanation of how sex is not purely about reproduction please explain how your conclusions can be generalised to other species including cows, spiders, and apple trees.

I am not your biology professor, but maybe one of the 2617 scientists in this link will be happy to help:

not-binary.org/statement/?fbclid=IwAR29fQ9nHtgrIWGMSsSdefR_OWPeMuZEmei0G3oEC31bAP_FThbngykjjtU

@Shizuku

"the denial of ROGD by certain activists is both cruel and enraging."

Well, in fairness, denial by most trans activists and pretty much all the doctors and scientists specialising in the field of gender dysphoria around the world. I'm sorry that the science isn't on your side, but it isn't and that's that.

You can make up any shit you like about what doctors and scientists specialising in the field of gender dysphoria believe. On this forum, on this thread, you have women who work in STEM and other roles where critical analysis of research is a core skill. We have told you why your view of "the science" is at best limited, definitely blinkered and often just plain wrong.

The papers you link don't even state what you claim they state most of the time. Nearly all had the original researchers identifying the limitations themselves!

Coming on here with wrongly interpreted science alongside a set of political statements, getting politely demolished and then insisting you are right must be a mentally exhausting way to live your life.

Why do you think all us highly trained, highly educated women are telling you you have got it wrong? What is our motivation in your mind?

@NotBadConsidering

But perhaps you will complain that all 55 peer-reviewed studies in that link are invalid?

Not a single one of those studies looks at the recent phenomenon of female children, puberty blockers and testosterone and none of them been published later than 2017.

Do you have anything to tell us that puberty blockers and testosterone for female children leads to good outcomes with low regret?

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958

"METHODS: A total of 55 young transgender adults (22 transwomen and 33 transmen) who had received puberty suppression during adolescence were assessed 3 times: before the start of puberty suppression (mean age, 13.6 years), when cross-sex hormones were introduced (mean age, 16.7 years), and at least 1 year after gender reassignment surgery (mean age, 20.7 years). Psychological functioning (GD, body image, global functioning, depression, anxiety, emotional and behavioral problems) and objective (social and educational/professional functioning) and subjective (quality of life, satisfaction with life and happiness) well-being were investigated."

"RESULTS: After gender reassignment, in young adulthood, the GD was alleviated and psychological functioning had steadily improved. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population. Improvements in psychological functioning were positively correlated with postsurgical subjective well-being."

Believe it or not, there is a reason why thousands of doctors and scientists who specialise in gender dysphoria approve of this protocol.

That's pretty much what you'd expect. Puberty blockers are a status quo drug - the child doesn't make progress with their transition during puberty blockade, they just have time to think.

So what’s the purpose of puberty blockers then? Are you saying it’s not to improve mental health? Are you saying it’s perfectly ok that these children remain suicidal - something you claimed - because they’ve been held in a status quo? They have all that time to think about how nothing is changing? When are they meant to get better then?! Just sit there in status quo while their bone density stays child-like?

How did the cohort of 44 young people with persistent and severe GD who were not treated with GnRHa fare? I couldn't see the control group mention in the study.

There wasn’t a control group. That’s part of the problem. No one compared what would happen if they were just allowed to progress through puberty.

@Shizuku

"So how do you account for the 4000% increase in kids showing up at gender clinics?"

That's what happens when people feel safe to be themselves.

What is the motivation behind 76 children in one school saying their are transgender? This is children. Are you seriously claiming they all have gender dysphoria? At the same time?

And 10 girls in exactly the same class in St Paul's school in London, coming out simultaneously?

Are you actually claiming, here in black and white that this is not rapid onset gender dysphoria?

What part doesn't fit the criteria? And why did Penny Mordant say it needed urgent investigation?

"Why do you think all us highly trained, highly educated women are telling you you have got it wrong? What is our motivation in your mind?"

Asks the person who is telling literally thousands of highly trained, highly educated doctors and scientists who specialise in this field that they have got it wrong.

Funny.

I am not your biology professor

Now that is most certainly the truth.

Mind you, hardly anybody on that letter is a biology professor.

That letter is about a piece of proposed US legislation about gender identity. It is not a peer reviewed scientific paper on biology.

Truth != Lies

There are no genetic tests that can unambiguously determine gender, or even sex.

Gender I suppose, but sex? How can any reputable scientist, from any discipline say such a stupid thing?

You certainly seem to think you're the expert on everything anyway, Shizuku. From where do you derive this authority?

Believe it or not, there is a reason why thousands of doctors and scientists who specialise in gender dysphoria approve of this protocol.

Again, a study from 2014. The authors of that study, Annelou L.C. de Vries and Thomas D. Steensma have more recently in the last few months come out to say they’re concerned their findings are being applied to a different cohort of children that are presenting now. This was pointed out to you earlier in the thread and there is a link of them expressing their concerns.

And this Dutch study is contradictory to that of the Tavistock’s

So the current massive number of female children. What is best for them?

How did the cohort of 44 young people with persistent and severe GD who were not treated with GnRHa fare? I couldn't see the control group mention in the study.*

Fuuny you should ask that... May be a question for the ethics committee - the second one with conflicts of interest that approved the study rather than the first unconflicted one which deemed the study unethical.

I think history has shown that a male medical profession frequently misunderstands and mistreat female problems, and teenage transitioner are predominantly female

History has also shown that men will do unethical things for profit. Think of the doctors who said smoking was safe , the climate change deniers, the doctors doing dodgy breast implants and vaginal meshes

@Helleofabore

2617 eminent scientists including several Nobel Prize winners disagreeing with you here

You mean the Nobel Laureate who is linked with New England Biolabs (probably a tad of a bias there).

And the many anthropologists, marine biologists and other biologists that have no speciality in this field, psychologist, environmental engineers, paleotologists, social sciences, toxicology, behavioural science, history, obstetricians, linguistics ...to be honest, I gave up after the linguistics.

So, not really so many notable evolutionary and developmental biologicals. And a whole heap of people heavily invested in progressing this theory.

This is a theory that has been progressed to destabilise science. I suspect that there are so many more scientists who don't even register that this is something that they have to prove. Because it is proven science.

So your theory is that you are right because thousands of scientist say your are wrong and no scientists say you are right.

Hilarious.

So page 20. Let's have a recap:

This thread is about conversion therapy. So far all the evidence presented shows that conversion therapy is both easily defined and is harmful to trans people.

No evidence has been presented to the contrary.

So your theory is that you are right because thousands of scientist say your are wrong and no scientists say you are right.

Hilarious.

What is the scientific basis for 76 trans kids in one school?

@Shizuku

So page 20. Let's have a recap:

This thread is about conversion therapy. So far all the evidence presented shows that conversion therapy is both easily defined and is harmful to trans people.

No evidence has been presented to the contrary.

🤣