Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

But perhaps you will complain that all 55 peer-reviewed studies in that link are invalid?

I too looked at these at the start of this year. And yes. They were irrelevant to the current cohort of young transitioners.

But maybe I missed something. Since you are very familiar with them maybe pick the ones you feel supports your points about young female transitioners and detransitioners.

And perhaps you missed my post about the follow up study done that had a figure above 8% after around 10 years.

You mistake is thinking that sex is purely about reproduction.

What else is it about? Why are there sexes? Why aren't we all the one sex?

@Shizuku

"Why do you think all us highly trained, highly educated women are telling you you have got it wrong? What is our motivation in your mind?"

Asks the person who is telling literally thousands of highly trained, highly educated doctors and scientists who specialise in this field that they have got it wrong.

Funny.

OK. I have asked myself.

I think you live in a fantasy world.

You cannot see the real world even when it is shown to you because you don't want to see it.

I think you are furious that we are being those awful mummies who won't play along with your game.

That's what I think.

I am bored of your game now.

Arguing with someone who has no understanding of how to read scientific papers and ignores errors clearly explained is boring.

The world is not going to follow your sex is complicated daftness.

What does ‘Conversion therapy’ mean for the LGB?

Does it mean attempting to change their sexuality (ie change which sex they are attracted too?).

Sex. Sexual orientation. Both protected characteristics.

Shizuku you said sex was not just to do with reproduction but you seem to be unable to explain why not. Providing a lust of random people is not an explanation. I take it you are therefore not able to explain your position.

But perhaps you will complain that all 55 peer-reviewed studies in that link are invalid?

That particular pudding has been massively over egged, as I pointed out on another thread.

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2019/04/51524/

The studies assembled by the What We Know Project do not prove that transition is the best treatment for gender dysphoria, let alone that it should be the only permissible treatment. Rather, they show that the science is not settled.

No one is trying to prove that “conversion therapy” is NOT harmful to trans people .

And you know that. We just want to be clear that everyone understands that the medical affirmative pathway for children causes incontrovertible harm with no evidence of benefit and no one should be criminalised for attempting to help children without pushing this medical affirmative pathway.

@Datun

So your theory is that you are right because thousands of scientist say your are wrong and no scientists say you are right.

Hilarious.

What is the scientific basis for 76 trans kids in one school?

My friend's child is now a trans boy, and so are all her 5 close friends from childhood. All socially transitioned, one after the other. I mean, what are the odds?

Yea let's recap

We all think conversion therapy is bad

But one person seems to think that conversion therapy does not include hormonal or surgical physical conversions

The same person however seems to think that talking about feelings and identity, expressing alternative ways to respond to the feelings is conversion therapy

It's conversation not conversion

They seem to think that such conversations are as harmful as electric shock therapy and other physical actions ( except when the physical actions are from an acceptable set of physical actions )

So your theory is that you are right because thousands of scientist say your are wrong and no scientists say you are right.

Try biologists Colin Wright and Emma Hilton. Rather than a lot of randoms with tenuous to no experience in the field who signed a politically motivated letter.

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/the-dangerous-denial-of-sex-11581638089

And I did not mean to misgender my friend's child. It's just that I am slow and he was wearing pigtails and a little girl dress one year ago.

@Shizuku

So page 20. Let's have a recap:

This thread is about conversion therapy. So far all the evidence presented shows that conversion therapy is both easily defined and is harmful to trans people.

No evidence has been presented to the contrary.

Have we had a definition of what gender identity is yet? It's a long thread and I might have missed it, but I think we have only been told what it's not and not what it is.

If conversion therapy changes someone's gender identity, what exactly is being changed for that person?

"The world is not going to follow your sex is complicated daftness."

They already are:

not-binary.org/statement/?fbclid=IwAR29fQ9nHtgrIWGMSsSdefR_OWPeMuZEmei0G3oEC31bAP_FThbngykjjtU

Cognitive dissonance at its high! @Shizuku
Too many trans kids because society is more accepting, too many suicidal trans kids because society is less accepting.

Blah, blah, blah

Meanwhile there was the first #Detransitioners awareness day on the 12th of March.

@Shizuku

So page 20. Let's have a recap:

This thread is about conversion therapy. So far all the evidence presented shows that conversion therapy is both easily defined and is harmful to trans people.

No evidence has been presented to the contrary.

I am reminded of Donald Trump.':

'I won!' ... ... 'Er, no, you lost!'

'But I won!' ... ... 'No, definitely, look ... you lost.'

'I won, I won, I won!' (Stamps foot, screams.)

... ... 'Oh, go and have a game of golf. Loser.'

@midgedude

Yea let's recap

We all think conversion therapy is bad

But one person seems to think that conversion therapy does not include hormonal or surgical physical conversions

The same person however seems to think that talking about feelings and identity, expressing alternative ways to respond to the feelings is conversion therapy

It's conversation not conversion

They seem to think that such conversations are as harmful as electric shock therapy and other physical actions ( except when the physical actions are from an acceptable set of physical actions )

"But one person seems to think that conversion therapy does not include hormonal or surgical physical conversions "

Well, me and pretty much all the thousands of doctors and scientists specialising in trans healthcare across the world.

"The same person however seems to think that talking about feelings and identity, expressing alternative ways to respond to the feelings is conversion therapy "

None of that is conversion therapy. Conversion therapy is specifically any attempt to force someone else's gender identity to change. Not sure how many times I need to write that, but there it is again.

Haven't read the full thread, just the most recent posts. There's a letter in The Times today regarding a particular type of homophobic conversion 'therapy' as happens in countries like Iran, and which also caused the concern to many Tavi staff: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7e1c65e8-8360-11eb-8dc5-6a6f238d9d27?shareToken=91e9436beee370067741e4ebf3b8ff57

[quote Shizuku]"The world is not going to follow your sex is complicated daftness."

They already are:

not-binary.org/statement/?fbclid=IwAR29fQ9nHtgrIWGMSsSdefR_OWPeMuZEmei0G3oEC31bAP_FThbngykjjtU[/quote]
Bless.

No.

You know when you tell a devout Catholic that you don't believe people are being cured of cancer by the Virgin at Lourdes and they send you a letter to the Catholic Herald as evidence followed up by sections of the bible as evidence. That.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-feels-like-conversion-therapy-for-gay-children-say-clinicians-pvsckdvq2

It feels like conversion therapy for gay children, say clinicians
Ex-NHS staff fear that homophobia is driving a surge in ‘transgender’ young people

Hopefully the conversion therapy bill will outlaw homosexual children being treated so appallingly.

The court cases happening now in the UK should speed it up so fewer homosexual children are harmed. I hope it happens soon so fewer are damaged for life.

30% I have been lurking on this thread from the start and thats exactly the impression I get.

So your theory is that you are right because thousands of scientist say your are wrong and no scientists say you are right.

You keep appealing to these ‘thousands’ of scientists as an appeal to authority.

You know there was a large cohort of ‘scientists’ who have backed smoking too in the past. Particularly if they were involved in some way.

And yes, when that 2300 odd ‘scientists’ include people who have no relevance, they are rightly questioned.

Seriously, linguists specialists? Or marine biologists who use clown fish as comparators for human sex classification. Plant biologists who probably use asparagus or something to do the same.

Again, there are probably 100s of thousands of scientists who can produce supporting evidence directly supporting two sexes and human reproduction. They don’t because it is proven science already and they don’t see the need to reprove it.

But they also have no interest in destabilizing science or language to allow people to say things like males are females.

And finally, I have university qualifications that allowed me to adequately point out your flawed statements regarding the interpretation of the questionnaire you posted. Yet, you were very happy to tell me I was wrong.

You have parents here posting and telling you our direct experience with teenaged girls here in the U.K. and you are happy to discredit us as well.

My friend's child is now a trans boy, and so are all her 5 close friends from childhood. All socially transitioned, one after the other. I mean, what are the odds?

Yep. Same. And all are lesbians.

You mistake is thinking that sex is purely about reproduction.

It is purely about reproduction. Humans come in two generic types, male and female, because that's how humans, as a mammalian species, have evolved to create the next generation of humans to perpetuate the species. If humans had evolved to reproduce by budding clones of ourselves from our fingertips, we wouldn't need sexual dimorphism.

Asks the person who is telling literally thousands of highly trained, highly educated doctors and scientists who specialise in this field that they have got it wrong.

No, what posters on this thread have been saying is that, irrespective of the quality of the science, your interpretation of it is wrong.

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958

"METHODS: A total of 55 young transgender adults (22 transwomen and 33 transmen) who had received puberty suppression during adolescence were assessed 3 times: before the start of puberty suppression (mean age, 13.6 years), when cross-sex hormones were introduced (mean age, 16.7 years), and at least 1 year after gender reassignment surgery (mean age, 20.7 years). Psychological functioning (GD, body image, global functioning, depression, anxiety, emotional and behavioral problems) and objective (social and educational/professional functioning) and subjective (quality of life, satisfaction with life and happiness) well-being were investigated."

"RESULTS: After gender reassignment, in young adulthood, the GD was alleviated and psychological functioning had steadily improved. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population. Improvements in psychological functioning were positively correlated with postsurgical subjective well-being."

No control group, no control treatment. For all we know, a comparable sample of trans young adults would have achieved the same outcome with psychotherapy alone.

@Terranean

Cognitive dissonance at its high! *@Shizuku* Too many trans kids because society is more accepting, too many suicidal trans kids because society is less accepting.

Blah, blah, blah

Meanwhile there was the first #Detransitioners awareness day on the 12th of March.

It is actually possible for both to be true.

In reply to your mocking dismissal, perhaps you should read about some actual young trans people who couldn't live in a world with attitudes like yours:

apnews.com/article/lille-france-gender-identity-906d49e6da9f932e648b835927be1d25

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Leelah_Alcorn

thebristolcable.org/2020/10/alexandra-greenway-bereaved-mother-slams-mental-health-care-before-death-trans-daughter/

www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/10/03/mother-sues-hospital-for-discrimination-after-staff-kept-calling-her-transgender-son-a-girl/

www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/key-biscayne/article205044709.html

atlantic.ctvnews.ca/it-s-definitely-a-crisis-cape-breton-family-speaks-out-about-trans-teen-s-suicide-1.3474763

www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article16655111.html

www.fox19.com/story/27717471/pedestrian-struck-killed-on-i-71/

bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/candlelight-vigil-for-jai-bornstein

Conversion therapy is specifically any attempt to force someone else's gender identity to change.

Ok, but without defining the basis for a gender identity, that's useless.

So how about being specific? This is from Julia Serano, who wrote whipping girl, and is often cited as an expert.

"While I never really believed the cliches about women being good for only one thing, I found that sentiment kept creeping into my fantasies. I would imagine myself being sold into sex slavery and having strange men take advantage of me.

It's called forced feminisation"

Are you saying that questioning this motivation is 'conversion therapy'? That 'forced feminisation' is a gender identity?