Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

[Shizuku]

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

I'm afraid the word doesn't resolve into simple binaries like that. Some people's gender identity falls somewhere between male and female. Some NB people experience that as being neither, some experience it as being both. It's difficult for them to express their experience with clarity because our society makes no room for them, either socially, legally or even linguistically.

No shit. Society doesn't make room for people who think they don't have a sex. Or have both sexes. True.

People who don't want to adhere to gender stereotypes, however, involves, amongst other things, feminism of course.

The thing is though: we don't need citable sources to prove that sex is real. That's just a distraction

I'm imagining a physicist saying "Oh golly-gosh, I know! I'll write a paper explaining that the Earth is round!"

I'd say that there might be a mathematician out there saying the same about 1+1=2, but knowing mathematicians, there probably is.

This entire argument seems to be about the latest trend of people redefining things to mean whatever is convenient to them and then proceeding to push those definitions with all the fervor of a religious zealot despite any pushback. Anything but constant affirmation is "killing trans people." Telling someone maybe they should reconsider medically transitioning (a major life decision) is "conversion therapy." Hell, I've heard some people refer to reading Mumsnet as a form of "self harm."

Apparently if I question anything about my own medical condition or about any trans topics I'm not really trans, I just take testosterone for fun I guess, according to OP. So are you the arbiter of sexuality and gender identity then? Honestly I find all of your comments incredibly insulting as a trans person who is just trying to live his life. If "being trans" is about identifying as the opposite sex, then who the hell are you to say anyone who disagrees with you is just pretending to be trans?

I'm GLAD people questioned me. I'm GLAD I knew upfront what I was getting into instead of constantly being told I was "valid." If someone's identity is so fragile that they can't handle being questioned about it and overblow it as the same as "gay conversion therapy," honestly they probably aren't very mature and should be receiving therapy, not hormones. I'm not sure if you're trans, but hormones changed the way I process emotions a lot, and I would not recommend them to anyone who has difficulties with emotional stability.

I've had several trans friends suffer intense complications from medical transition/surgery that will follow them for the rest of their lives. Transitioning is a huge life decision not only socially but physically, so why should we not question it? Should everyone act on impulse? I took many years to finally decide to start HRT, and I'm glad I waited to be absolutely sure. It would have been nice to live out my teenage years passing as a guy for sure, but I prefer having that experience and knowing for sure that this is the right choice for me than to rush in.

It's people like you who make others hate the trans community and consider us unreasonable, because you do nothing but talk over people and assume every other trans person thinks exactly like you, while insulting actual trans people who disagree, regardless of their lived experience.

Powerful post kaineus and all the best to you in your journey. May you always be guided by wise health practitioners and make the best decisions for you.

kaineus

I have only come across your posts once before, but both times now I learn something more about FTM transition. Thank you for that.

I, and many others on this thread, have great concerns about the way the current push from activists ignore the differences between the group transitioning 10-15 years ago and now. Or the differences between the late transitioning males and the majority of the children and teens.

There is never any acknowledgement of the needs of young teenage females. It seems always driven by the male perspective and those who point it out are derided as bigots.

It’s the push for affirming only as the only treatment with very broad and meaningless definitions for conversion therapy that is one of the problems. That other treatment options like watchful waiting while focusing on discovering and treating underlying health issues is considered problematic is a major concern.

Between reading your post and reading the detransitioner stories today, seeing watchful waiting working with a friend’s daughter while watching the very poor mental health of some of the other friends of my teen who identify as trans, I know having more than one treatment path is imperative and worth fighting for.

Thank you kaineus

Of course, there is no way in medicine to eliminate error completely, but fortunately, trans regret is extremely rare - somewhere between 0.3 and 3.8%, which is better than for most medical procedures.

This keeps getting posted. So I am going to post my comment on another thread. It was the results of a study following up transitioners from the 00s but the study was released in 2017. It was a study looking at something completely different but I picked these stats from them.

___

Has anyone else picked up that in this report

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/

quite a number of the transitioners seemed to have detransitioned to the point where they stated they were no longer living 'as the opposite sex'? This is a small study but states:

135 natal males (119 living in the female role, 12 in the male role, 4 did not report their current gender role) and 66 natal females (60 living in the male role, 5 in the female role, 1 did not report a current gender role)

So... 8.88% of males and 8.33% of the females (this does not include those who did not answer the question which if the answer was to detransition would make these figures higher). And in Figure 3. 22.2% of those who socially transitioned, detransitioned.

Those numbers are pretty significant aren't they? And I point out these 8% figures are for POST medicalised transition.

It certainly makes me all the more concerned that a treatment plan that has been shown to perhaps have an 8+% rate of desistance from living in the 'gender' role they chose to have surgery to facilitate, is being hailed as the best course of treatment. At all!

———

I am not arguing that this is to be taken as ‘best evidence’ (yet I probably could using the standard set on this thread). I am however pointing out that the figure of 3.8% or less is most likely not correct either.

Strangely, studies into detransitioner numbers are deemed transphobic and shut down. And clinics are not following up to gather the numbers and, more importantly, provide care either.

And that activists need to stop making detransitioner stories about ‘restricting’ health care. It should be about ensuring the highest standard of health care for every single person, whatever their age but particularly for children and teens, and at every stage of transition.

None of the studies that TRAs report as demonstrating an extremely low detransition rate are recent, or take into account the very recent approach of giving girls puberty blockers then testosterone. This affirmative approach for girls has only really taken off in the last 5 years so these girls are only just reaching 20 or so now. The much reported “0.6% detransition rate” from the Dutch cohort only refers to those who underwent gonadectomy and were asked if they regretted it. We have NO idea how many girls regret or will regret testosterone. At all. No idea. Any claims to the contrary are lies.

Exactly!

@Helleofabore

Ask the scientists - most of the ones on that link can be found through their universities etc.

I asked what axis would be used to define who would be more of a female on this spectrum than another female.

Since we cannot ask these scientists, what do you propose?

Surely you can see just how this pits females against females. Where would a women who had had a hysterectomy fit in? Or a menopausal woman? Or a woman with PCOS? A woman with low oestrogen?

And you are telling us that a transwoman is female. Where on the scale do they fit? Does it matter they are one of the 90% with a penis? Not on cross sex hormones? What about if they have 1 child, 7 children?

Or is it based on social/behavioral sciences and how we dress? Can we cook apple pie?

How do you honestly see this spectrum working?

You are slowly beginning to understand the complexity and nuances of human sex differentiation.

@NotBadConsidering

None of the studies that TRAs report as demonstrating an extremely low detransition rate are recent, or take into account the very recent approach of giving girls puberty blockers then testosterone. This affirmative approach for girls has only really taken off in the last 5 years so these girls are only just reaching 20 or so now. The much reported “0.6% detransition rate” from the Dutch cohort only refers to those who underwent gonadectomy and were asked if they regretted it. We have NO idea how many girls regret or will regret testosterone. At all. No idea. Any claims to the contrary are lies.

Just over 3 years ago, the Royal Children’s Hospital in Melbourne were required to present evidence in court on detransition rates for their young trans patients. The detransition rate was about 4%:

blogs.rch.org.au/news/2017/11/30/kelvin-family-court-announcement/

"The Royal Children’s Hospital has received more than 130 patient referrals this year, and more than 700 since 2003. Of these, 96 per cent diagnosed with gender dysphoria continued to identify as transgender into late adolescence. No patient who commenced stage two treatment has sought to transition back to their birth sex."

And again, this was a blog post posted in 2017, and does not provide any raw data. It doesn’t not take into account the last 4 years of girls started on testosterone. I do have a recollection of looking into this Melbourne 4% claim previously and finding a source, and it only having data up to their late teens, not after. So 4 years ago, RCH Melbourne were claiming 4%, but had no idea what happened to them as they got older, having announced anything since of how they’re going in their early or mid 20s, and since then they’ve treated a big increase of girls with testosterone, who will still need to demonstrate which way they will go in the future.

We have NO idea what will happen to these girls.

@kaineus

This entire argument seems to be about the latest trend of people redefining things to mean whatever is convenient to them and then proceeding to push those definitions with all the fervor of a religious zealot despite any pushback. Anything but constant affirmation is "killing trans people." Telling someone maybe they should reconsider medically transitioning (a major life decision) is "conversion therapy." Hell, I've heard some people refer to reading Mumsnet as a form of "self harm."

Apparently if I question anything about my own medical condition or about any trans topics I'm not really trans, I just take testosterone for fun I guess, according to OP. So are you the arbiter of sexuality and gender identity then? Honestly I find all of your comments incredibly insulting as a trans person who is just trying to live his life. If "being trans" is about identifying as the opposite sex, then who the hell are you to say anyone who disagrees with you is just pretending to be trans?

I'm GLAD people questioned me. I'm GLAD I knew upfront what I was getting into instead of constantly being told I was "valid." If someone's identity is so fragile that they can't handle being questioned about it and overblow it as the same as "gay conversion therapy," honestly they probably aren't very mature and should be receiving therapy, not hormones. I'm not sure if you're trans, but hormones changed the way I process emotions a lot, and I would not recommend them to anyone who has difficulties with emotional stability.

I've had several trans friends suffer intense complications from medical transition/surgery that will follow them for the rest of their lives. Transitioning is a huge life decision not only socially but physically, so why should we not question it? Should everyone act on impulse? I took many years to finally decide to start HRT, and I'm glad I waited to be absolutely sure. It would have been nice to live out my teenage years passing as a guy for sure, but I prefer having that experience and knowing for sure that this is the right choice for me than to rush in.

It's people like you who make others hate the trans community and consider us unreasonable, because you do nothing but talk over people and assume every other trans person thinks exactly like you, while insulting actual trans people who disagree, regardless of their lived experience.

Thank you kaineus for this post. I'm quoting it as the OP appears to be ignoring it. As someone who works with teenagers and sees regularly teenage girls with a range of co morbidities being caught up in the belief that their bodies are wrong and need fixing with drugs and surgery that will impact on their fertility and lives for ever, the denial of ROGD by certain activists is both cruel and enraging.

What would a 4% ‘desistance’ mean in practice?

The Australia statistic refers to persistence “until late adolescence” (they can’t yet have longer term data – and we will have to wait until this cohort of young people grow into middle age).

growinguptransgender.com/2017/12/03/the-end-of-the-desistance-myth/

So 3 years ago, we only knew that 4% expressed regret while still teenagers.

This means that RCH Melbourne inappropriately provided sex conversion therapy to 4% of children is saw prior to 2017. Do you think this is appropriate?

Keira Bell is in her 20s now. How confident are you and RCH Melbourne that this rate doesn’t increase for girls in their 20s?

No one has any idea.

You are slowly beginning to understand the complexity and nuances of human sex differentiation.

Errr... no. I understand it very well. It is you who seems to have trouble. Human sex differentiation, except for those with differences of sex development, has not changed for millennia.

And now, thanks to modern medicine, even those with differences of sex development can reliably be found to be either male or female.

What is complex is how sex is translated in gender identity. Sex itself is simple.

Thanks though.

Remind me again what the full range of gametes involved in human reproduction? I get stuck after spermatozoa and ova.

@kaineus

This entire argument seems to be about the latest trend of people redefining things to mean whatever is convenient to them and then proceeding to push those definitions with all the fervor of a religious zealot despite any pushback. Anything but constant affirmation is "killing trans people." Telling someone maybe they should reconsider medically transitioning (a major life decision) is "conversion therapy." Hell, I've heard some people refer to reading Mumsnet as a form of "self harm."

Apparently if I question anything about my own medical condition or about any trans topics I'm not really trans, I just take testosterone for fun I guess, according to OP. So are you the arbiter of sexuality and gender identity then? Honestly I find all of your comments incredibly insulting as a trans person who is just trying to live his life. If "being trans" is about identifying as the opposite sex, then who the hell are you to say anyone who disagrees with you is just pretending to be trans?

I'm GLAD people questioned me. I'm GLAD I knew upfront what I was getting into instead of constantly being told I was "valid." If someone's identity is so fragile that they can't handle being questioned about it and overblow it as the same as "gay conversion therapy," honestly they probably aren't very mature and should be receiving therapy, not hormones. I'm not sure if you're trans, but hormones changed the way I process emotions a lot, and I would not recommend them to anyone who has difficulties with emotional stability.

I've had several trans friends suffer intense complications from medical transition/surgery that will follow them for the rest of their lives. Transitioning is a huge life decision not only socially but physically, so why should we not question it? Should everyone act on impulse? I took many years to finally decide to start HRT, and I'm glad I waited to be absolutely sure. It would have been nice to live out my teenage years passing as a guy for sure, but I prefer having that experience and knowing for sure that this is the right choice for me than to rush in.

It's people like you who make others hate the trans community and consider us unreasonable, because you do nothing but talk over people and assume every other trans person thinks exactly like you, while insulting actual trans people who disagree, regardless of their lived experience.

"Anything but constant affirmation is "killing trans people."

Doctors working with trans people have found that affirmation is beneficial and the opposite is detrimental. When you are working with a group of children who are already at risk of self harm and suicide, doing something that makes things worse for them can potentially lead to death.

"Telling someone maybe they should reconsider medically transitioning (a major life decision) is "conversion therapy.""

That's not what conversion therapy means - conversion therapy is an an attempt to actually change a person's gender identity.

"Apparently if I question anything about my own medical condition or about any trans topics I'm not really trans"

Not at all - I would encourage you to question everything, so would all the trans people I know. If your gender identity does not match the sex you were assigned at birth, you are trans, regardless of any questions you ask about it.

"So are you the arbiter of sexuality and gender identity then?"

No idea where you are getting that from.

"If "being trans" is about identifying as the opposite sex, then who the hell are you to say anyone who disagrees with you is just pretending to be trans? "

I haven't. You can disagree with me all you like - please do - speak freely. If your gender identity does not match the sex you were assigned at birth, you are trans, regardless of anything you might disagree with me about.

"I'm GLAD I knew upfront what I was getting into instead of constantly being told I was "valid.""

Those are not mutually exclusive concepts - you can tell someone they are valid whilst also explaining to them exactly what they are getting into. I would encourage both.

"If someone's identity is so fragile that they can't handle being questioned about it and overblow it as the same as "gay conversion therapy," honestly they probably aren't very mature and should be receiving therapy, not hormones."

Being asked question about your gender identity isn't conversion therapy. Conversion therapy is any attempt by someone to force your gender identity to change.

"Transitioning is a huge life decision not only socially but physically, so why should we not question it?"

You should question it.

"Should everyone act on impulse?"

No one should.

"I took many years to finally decide to start HRT, and I'm glad I waited to be absolutely sure. It would have been nice to live out my teenage years passing as a guy for sure, but I prefer having that experience and knowing for sure that this is the right choice for me than to rush in."

You took the approach that worked for you and it has turned out well. Congratulations - I am genuinely happy for you.

"you do nothing but talk over people and assume every other trans person thinks exactly like you"

That's a story you are telling yourself. I know many trans people - they are all different and have all kinds of different opinions and approaches. And you can't talk over people in a text-based forum - what would that even look like? All you can do is post before or after other posts.

"insulting actual trans people who disagree, regardless of their lived experience."

Again, this is a story you are telling yourself about me - it's not derived from anything I have actually said. I have not time for transphobes, even if they are trans themselves, but I would rarely descend to direct insults - it's not really helpful. The best thing to do is simply dismantle their arguments.

@Tibtom

Remind me again what the full range of gametes involved in human reproduction? I get stuck after spermatozoa and ova.

You mistake is thinking that sex is purely about reproduction.

"Or is it based on social/behavioral sciences and how we dress? Can we cook apple pie?

How do you honestly see this spectrum working?"

You are slowly beginning to understand the complexity and nuances of human sex differentiation.

There you go. Baking it is. 🙄

"the denial of ROGD by certain activists is both cruel and enraging."

Well, in fairness, denial by most trans activists and pretty much all the doctors and scientists specialising in the field of gender dysphoria around the world. I'm sorry that the science isn't on your side, but it isn't and that's that.

No patient who commenced stage two treatment has sought to transition back to their birth sex."

And yet a consistent theme from yesterday’s detransitioner day was that they did not go back. In fact, one said on a video that why would you go back to a clinic you felt harmed you.

And yes, the lack of data accompanying this post is also enlightening.

So, did they track the cases past post adolescence? Or do they simply mean up to adulthood there was no detransition?

And again, it doesn’t really reflect the large increase in numbers that have come through since does it!

@Shizuku

"the denial of ROGD by certain activists is both cruel and enraging."

Well, in fairness, denial by most trans activists and pretty much all the doctors and scientists specialising in the field of gender dysphoria around the world. I'm sorry that the science isn't on your side, but it isn't and that's that.

So how do you account for the 4000% increase in kids showing up at gender clinics? Mostly girls

Or the 76 children identifying as trans in one school.

I cant wait to hear your theory.

@NotBadConsidering

And again, this was a blog post posted in 2017, and does not provide any raw data. It doesn’t not take into account the last 4 years of girls started on testosterone. I do have a recollection of looking into this Melbourne 4% claim previously and finding a source, and it only having data up to their late teens, not after. So 4 years ago, RCH Melbourne were claiming 4%, but had no idea what happened to them as they got older, having announced anything since of how they’re going in their early or mid 20s, and since then they’ve treated a big increase of girls with testosterone, who will still need to demonstrate which way they will go in the future.

We have NO idea what will happen to these girls.

I suspect that when they study them in their 20s, people will say it's not long enough, and then again in their 30s and then again in their 40s (and of course many of the people who started with puberty blockers in the 80's are now in their 40s).

You can look at adult trans people and see what the regret rate is - it's between 0.3 and 3.8% so rather close to the findings of the Australian study:

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/

But perhaps you will complain that all 55 peer-reviewed studies in that link are invalid?

You mistake is thinking that sex is purely about reproduction.

It is. The classification of the sexes is only about reproduction. Whether a person can successfully reproduce or not is not relevant to the description of the two sexes.

Please name a third gamete?

Doctors working with trans people have found that affirmation is beneficial and the opposite is detrimental.

This is a lie. Doctors at the Tavistock have actually found:

no differences between baseline and later outcomes for overall psychological distress as rated by parents and young people, nor for self-harm.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0243894

They also found:

the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts in that comparison.

ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.1778correction

Medical affirmative therapy for trans people does not improve psychological outcomes, for adults or children and results in physical harm.