There's been a sticker....

[fatblackcatspaw]

for IWD Scottish women have been stickering and beribboning across the land - see twitter. All the way to John O Groats #womenwontwheesht

@MichelleofzeResistance

Imagine how girls feel when they're supposed to pretend they're not humiliated, embarrassed, ashamed and really, really don't want to have undress or use the toilet in that situation, but aren't allowed to talk about it or show it in case a male child feels accused of being sexually unsafe.

Why are the female children's feelings so unimportant and they must put their needs and feelings aside to nurture the male child? And why does the male child not have to carry the same burden of putting aside their own feelings and needs to care for female children? And lets think about whether we should as a society be training female children that their right to privacy, dignity, to say no to a male person, should depend on whether the male person may be offended or upset by their no? Are we dropping an equal burden on all male children incidentally?

Some major sexism issues happening here, not to mention a serious lack of equality of respect and care for non-trans children.

You are so right as always, Michelle.

The simple fact is that those who think women and girls rights are transphobic don't care one iota about women and girls save having them as silent, compliant, submissive tools to serve them.

Recent event and reactions from a certain quarter (and posters on here) have made that glaringly obvious, women and girls aren't even second class citizens, we are lower than that in their view.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Imagine how girls feel when they're supposed to pretend they're not humiliated, embarrassed, ashamed and really, really don't want to have undress or use the toilet in that situation, but aren't allowed to talk about it or show it in case a male child feels accused of being sexually unsafe.

Why are the female children's feelings so unimportant and they must put their needs and feelings aside to nurture the male child? And why does the male child not have to carry the same burden of putting aside their own feelings and needs to care for female children? And lets think about whether we should as a society be training female children that their right to privacy, dignity, to say no to a male person, should depend on whether the male person may be offended or upset by their no? Are we dropping an equal burden on all male children incidentally?

Some major sexism issues happening here, not to mention a serious lack of equality of respect and care for non-trans children.

Precisely this.

women and girls aren't even second class citizens, we are lower than that in their view

Yes. It seems some posters do not believe that girls and women are full people, but instead think we are some kind of subhumans who exist to provide support or service to boys and men.

The simple fact is that those who think women and girls rights are transphobic don't care

And never do we see any creditable explanations as to how any conflicting areas are NOT negatively affecting women and girls. Never. Not. One. Ever.

@Helleofabore

The simple fact is that those who think women and girls rights are transphobic don't care

And never do we see any creditable explanations as to how any conflicting areas are NOT negatively affecting women and girls. Never. Not. One. Ever.

No we don't and the only feelings, wants and demands that matter are NOT those of women and girls.

Maybe the hypothetical transgirls would, if they had any sense of fairness and decency, think, 'yeah 'cisgirls' have rights too ... maybe I'd better request a third space'?

I imagine some do Errol but in their heads and never lit loud in case of a backlash

@ErrolTheDragon

Maybe the hypothetical transgirls would, if they had any sense of fairness and decency, think, 'yeah 'cisgirls' have rights too ... maybe I'd better request a third space'?

Chance would be a fine thing, no validation available in a third space.

But that's the core of it. To not be transphobic requires to perceive a person as they wish to be perceived rather than as the person themselves perceives them. Which necessarily means that the other person's own perceptions must be subordinated to theirs.

There are issues with this. Society can't be divided into the people whose feelings matter and the people who can't show or have their feelings. Or the people who get to say what everyone else must perceive and the people who are told their perceptions are wrong and must come second to the wishes of others. This just is never going to work and it shouldn't. You can't split the world into the givers and the takers. Social contracts have to be reciprocal to work.

Nice to see Bobby made it into The Herald on Sunday magazine.

@Helleofabore

The simple fact is that those who think women and girls rights are transphobic don't care

And never do we see any creditable explanations as to how any conflicting areas are NOT negatively affecting women and girls. Never. Not. One. Ever.

Such good posts MichelleofzeResistance and quite right Helleofabore. It's been depressing to see the same misogynists trying to define any talk of sex based rights as inherently transphobic. Currently the cognitive dissonance of mainly men telling women that we have no right to safe sex based spaces is reverberating around the country and it's been pleasing to see so many women finally waking up to what is being demanded of (and removed from) women and girls.

particularly effecting disabled girls. I think their thoughts and feelings should count too. Those who may have more difficulty with understanding their own privacy or coordination issues to ensure they do stay protected. They need single sex spaces. Those disabled children who perceive male and can not lie.

and those who have been abused (csa) not being traumatised by being in an intimate space is important.

where is the kindness to them?

where is the kindness to them?

There isn't any, likewise women and girls from strict religions who will be forced to further exclude themselves from school and society. High profile TW and TRA's simply say they have to suck it up and get over it which is nice.

Yes, using toilets as an example, making them 'gender neutral' may give some trans people more options but will also have the effect of then giving some women and girls no options.

Here's a short film in which you can see for yourself how distressed cis girls are about sharing spaces with a trans girl:

I know. How about the parents of mumsnet just ask their children? It seems to be often forgotten that mumsnet is a parenting forum and that many users actually have children and teens still. Or siblings, or grandchildren.

In fact, I have some teens in the house now, shall I just ask them how they feel about sharing spaces with males regardless of how that person identifies?

Particularly in light of current events.

I had a wee look to see if I could find out more about the film mentioned above but then stumbled across another film (with a very similar name, in fact I struggled to find the Dutch one) which I would be much more interested in watching - 'I am a Girl' (2013).

Part of the synopsis if anyone is interested -
'There is a group of people in the world today who are more persecuted than anyone else, but they are not political or religious activists. They are girls. Being born a girl means you are more likely to be subjected to violence, disease, poverty and disadvantage than any other group on Earth.'

It follows 6 girls from across the world as they come head to head with sex based barriers and circumstances. I'll be giving it a watch this week.

Yes girls who can't identify out of their oppression. Girls who are not a subset of their own sex.! Please don't insult women and girls by describing us as " c.."

Here's a short film in which you can see for yourself how distressed cis girls are about sharing spaces with a trans girl

You are talking to women. We were girls, we continue to use female spaces, and we have sisters, daughters and nieces. You're not David Attenborough informing the ignorant UK masses about the life of the savannah.

There is something incredibly phallocentric and colonist about giving women a video about some girls and telling US that is what all girls think and feel and say.

Can't wait for the follow up to this. Perhaps I should go on a Canadian forum, and give them a video on what Canadians think, and tell them they're doing it all wrong?

There is something incredibly phallocentric and colonist about giving women a video about some girls and telling US that is what all girls think and feel and say.

There is something not quite connecting here. Apart from the ‘you people on a parents forum called mumsnet don’t know anything about being a girl’ or is it ‘the right kind of girl, who thinks the right thoughts’.

Really?

This thread may be of interest to many of you, it's not obviously from the title

Women's Manifesto www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4192960-Womens-Manifesto

But it doesn't matter if 99% of women and girls feel willing and able to share mixed sex spaces when vulnerable or undressed.

What do we do with the 1%? What inclusion and kindness for them? Where's the intersectionality that some women and girls cannot do this because of their needs - as unique and valuable as transness is in any person.

A solution that excludes some females from anything so that male people may have freedom of choice from everything is not a solution. It just reinforces the prejudice and inequality of value and consideration currently considered acceptable to direct towards female people. Solutions have to be found that work for all, and that will have to include retaining single sex spaces for those female people who have no other options.

So the key question is: why is it intolerable that these female people should be allowed this?

It would also be very easy to knock up a short film that focuses on female people who do have issues and voices and needs that cannot be accommodated in mixed sex provision while excluding any other voices or views.

Frankly it doesn't get us much further. The issue is that we have two groups with conflicting, irreconcilable views and needs, and the only possible solution is parallel provisions. Additional spaces.