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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Parliamentary debate on Monday to ban gay conversion therapy

160 replies

rabbitwoman · 06/03/2021 08:12

Morning!

I have been keeping an eye out for a thread about this but can't see one....

Banning conversion therapy was a key manesfesto pledge by this government. Of course, gay conversion therapy is appalling and archaic and I am amazed its still legal in this country so of course I am all for a ban. The government have been slow off the mark, though.

A petition to ban conversion therapy reached 250000 so it is being raised in parliament on Monday. Great! I signed it myself.....

But then closer inspection of the wording of the petition raised alarm bells - it doesn't say gay conversion therapy, but LGBT therapy......

The recent decision to re evaluate the use of puberty blockers for children has caused a lot of anger and debate amongst many trans rights advocates, and I presume that the main thrust of the debate will be around the treatment of gender dysphoric children.

The Keira Bell case very much highlighted the problems with the Stonewall advocated approach of complete and immediate affirmation of transgender children and it would appear that actually, a range of treatments may be appropriate, including therapy and counselling that may question a child's gender distress and explore alternative causes, helping a child to successful outcomes that may not include transitioning.

In many places this has been reframed as 'conversion therapy'. I am very concerned that the thrust of the argument in parliament will be much less about the abhorrent practice of using psychological and physical torture to supress same sexual attraction, and more about outlawing a range of therapies for children presenting with gender dysphoria.

This has happened in Australia and the USA, and it looks like a call to folow suit here, which would raise concerns from a safeguarding viewpoint, as well as directly contradicting the findings of the recent Tavistock review. Making it illeagle to explore what could be alternative causes of gender dysphoria and heading straight to transition is a worrying treatment model.

There is also a lot of compelling evidence from the Tavistock review that gay children had been pushed into transition by homophobic parents - Marcus Evans, Susan Evans and Dr David Bell have all said this in public interviews.

The wording of this petition, though, seems to be a deliberate tactic to lump together perfectly reasonable and watchful therapies with abhorrent and sickening practises. I am concerned that the nuance will be missed by some and the progress that has been made since the review will be lost.

It is possible to believe that gay conversion therapy is wrong on every level, but also to think that hormones and surgery is not an appropriate pathway for many children currently identifying out of womanhood. Providing alternative treatments for gender dysphoric children should not be lumped in with gay conversion therapy.

I have tried to raise this on twitter and the replies I got seemed to be willfully refusing to see the difference.

I will be following the debate with interest, though!

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nauticant · 09/03/2021 11:04

This is about to be covered on Radio 4:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000sz1y

As conversion therapy facing a UK ban, Caitlin Benedict explores the heinous practices that LGBT+ people were subjected to with the guise of changing their sexuality.

Since they've investigated this for a 30 minute documentary, let's see if the BBC give examples of conversion therapy applied to gender identity.

AbsintheFriends · 09/03/2021 11:05

Programme about this on Radio 4 right now.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_fourfm

What a surprise - presented by a 'trans queer person'.

nauticant · 09/03/2021 11:08

Apparently 7% of LGBTQI+ people have encountered conversion therapy practices. That goes up to 13% for trans people.

The first example of appalling conversion therapy is a gay bloke being forced to have hormone shots. Irony is dead.

Now up, the self-declared queer presenter interviews a self-declared queer historian.

AbsintheFriends · 09/03/2021 11:09

Sorry nauticant cross posted the link

nauticant · 09/03/2021 11:11

Let's listen together!

AbsintheFriends · 09/03/2021 11:12

Call me trivial but the way she says 'sex-u-alidee' is getting right on my nerves

nauticant · 09/03/2021 11:12

The Nazis burned the "queer library of Alexandria"!

Queer people this, queer people that, here's the self-declared queer historian again!

AbsintheFriends · 09/03/2021 11:15

Doesn't this just expose the lack of logic and science and sense of gender ideology? They're underlining how hormones remove sexual desire. Isn't that what we're doing to 'trans' children who are given affirmative treatment?

nauticant · 09/03/2021 11:15

I wasn't hearing 'sex-u-alidee' till you mentioned it and now I can't not hear it. Bad AbsintheFriends!

AbsintheFriends · 09/03/2021 11:18

Sorry Grin

AbsintheFriends · 09/03/2021 11:19

'There's no evidence that you will be healed. Most likely you will suffer worse mental health outcomes' after conversion therapy. (Healed of depression or suicidal ideation, I think?)

Now what does that remind me of?

nauticant · 09/03/2021 11:29

The examples of historical practices and science they talked about all related to homosexuality. That's right, only homosexuality. Which the self-declared queer presenter then summarised as including trans people and gender identity.

Considering that according to the statistics given at the start of the programme conversion therapy applied to trans people is far more prevalent than conversion therapy applied to gay people it is curious how they were unable to give examples of the former.

In fact, the only time the programme went in this direction was an expert talking about how a medical practitioner not sending a trans person to a specialist immediately might be said to be transphobic and that was a worry. Credit to the programme for including that at least.

A politician comes on to explain why the Bill including trans people is of paramount importance. Her argument was about "people being able to live their lives freely" but was otherwise incomprehensible.

It is a Trojan Horse.

AbsintheFriends · 09/03/2021 11:30

'Trans people are the most likely to go through conversion therapy in the UK'? Also, 'Trans people are often the most vulnerable' in the LGBT community.

What does conversion therapy look like for trans people? We've heard lots about how conversion therapy works for homosexuality (27 minutes or so) but what form does this 'most common' form of conversion therapy take? Is it just not affirming by using your GNC child's pronouns or new name? Encouraging watchful waiting in a distressed teenager?

nauticant · 09/03/2021 11:31

If you're inclined to listen to this but are feeling low on patience, the most interesting parts are in the last 5 or so minutes.

WarriorN · 09/03/2021 11:33

Has anyone pointed out that in some counties gay people are 'converted' to trans?

AbsintheFriends · 09/03/2021 11:33

I think we were making the same point nauticant, but you made it so much better!

Massive, massive trojan horse. But a shaky one, I'd say. In inviting this scrutiny are they not running the risk of more people noticing that gender identity is not remotely the same as sexual orientation and is arguably contradictory?

nauticant · 09/03/2021 11:36

I think you're right. It was propaganda until towards the end when there was discussion about the interaction of science and the law and at that point the conviction about being on the right side of history did get a bit shaky.

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 13:17

What does this have to do with feminism?

Erkrie · 09/03/2021 13:21

What does this have to do with feminism?

Why do you think it doesn't?

RozWatching · 09/03/2021 13:23

@Shizuku

What does this have to do with feminism?
womansplaceuk.org/2020/11/30/keira-bell-there-was-nothing-wrong-with-my-body/
Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/03/2021 13:24

Shizuku's thread that you may wish to post on:

Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4187324-Conversion-Therapy-and-a-Survey-of-25-896-LGBTQ-youth

rabbitwoman · 09/03/2021 13:24

@Shizuku

What does this have to do with feminism?
You are fairly new aren't you Shizuku?

You recently started a thread about suicide statistics that is currently being picked apart and is unravelling as we speak, bwith another poster then asking you 'what has this got to do with feminism?'

Look, tactics like that won't work. You are better off engaging with the topic in good faith. What do you think about the parliamentary debate?

It seems obvious that participants are deliberately lumping gay conversion therapy in with gender dysphoria treatments to obfuscate the debate, what do you think of this?

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Shizuku · 09/03/2021 13:27

Either a discussion of conversion therapy involving transgender people is relevant to these boards or it isn't.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/03/2021 13:28

Just perhaps different individual posters have different opinions on that?

rabbitwoman · 09/03/2021 13:33

@Shizuku

Either a discussion of conversion therapy involving transgender people is relevant to these boards or it isn't.
Super. This is a better starting point.

Indeed, since the Keira Bell case, it would appear there is evidence that gay children were being taken for treatment to the Tavistock because their homophobic parents were more comfortable having a transgender child than a gay one.

This was testified in court and three judges ruled against the Tavistock so it is a legal precident in this country.

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