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Original poster

Parliamentary debate on Monday to ban gay conversion therapy

160 replies

rabbitwoman · 06/03/2021 08:12

Morning!

I have been keeping an eye out for a thread about this but can't see one....

Banning conversion therapy was a key manesfesto pledge by this government. Of course, gay conversion therapy is appalling and archaic and I am amazed its still legal in this country so of course I am all for a ban. The government have been slow off the mark, though.

A petition to ban conversion therapy reached 250000 so it is being raised in parliament on Monday. Great! I signed it myself.....

But then closer inspection of the wording of the petition raised alarm bells - it doesn't say gay conversion therapy, but LGBT therapy......

The recent decision to re evaluate the use of puberty blockers for children has caused a lot of anger and debate amongst many trans rights advocates, and I presume that the main thrust of the debate will be around the treatment of gender dysphoric children.

The Keira Bell case very much highlighted the problems with the Stonewall advocated approach of complete and immediate affirmation of transgender children and it would appear that actually, a range of treatments may be appropriate, including therapy and counselling that may question a child's gender distress and explore alternative causes, helping a child to successful outcomes that may not include transitioning.

In many places this has been reframed as 'conversion therapy'. I am very concerned that the thrust of the argument in parliament will be much less about the abhorrent practice of using psychological and physical torture to supress same sexual attraction, and more about outlawing a range of therapies for children presenting with gender dysphoria.

This has happened in Australia and the USA, and it looks like a call to folow suit here, which would raise concerns from a safeguarding viewpoint, as well as directly contradicting the findings of the recent Tavistock review. Making it illeagle to explore what could be alternative causes of gender dysphoria and heading straight to transition is a worrying treatment model.

There is also a lot of compelling evidence from the Tavistock review that gay children had been pushed into transition by homophobic parents - Marcus Evans, Susan Evans and Dr David Bell have all said this in public interviews.

The wording of this petition, though, seems to be a deliberate tactic to lump together perfectly reasonable and watchful therapies with abhorrent and sickening practises. I am concerned that the nuance will be missed by some and the progress that has been made since the review will be lost.

It is possible to believe that gay conversion therapy is wrong on every level, but also to think that hormones and surgery is not an appropriate pathway for many children currently identifying out of womanhood. Providing alternative treatments for gender dysphoric children should not be lumped in with gay conversion therapy.

I have tried to raise this on twitter and the replies I got seemed to be willfully refusing to see the difference.

I will be following the debate with interest, though!

OP posts:
Terranean · 06/03/2021 22:49

Work as James Caspian was proposing is soooo important. Trans people deserve that research and understanding of why there are those who regret transition and how to best make that decision to avoid detransitioners situation as much as possible, with a better base of evidence behind. It will benefit everyone.

FindTheTruth · 07/03/2021 04:10

Queer theory pretending to be LGBT is conversion therapy

FindTheTruth · 07/03/2021 04:32

Queer theory stonewall et al pretending to be LGBT, lobbied to remove sex from the equality act (and replace it with gender) for 6 years. To remove two protected characteristics - sex and sexual orientation. Without sex there's no same-sex attraction. They sent in the #nodebate trojan horse into our schools, Universities in LGBT groups, on the BBC, online, in our government and in public bodies. Same-sex attracted 18 year olds go to university, join the LGBT group and come back at Christmas 'Trans'.

FindTheTruth · 07/03/2021 04:38

Grass roots LGBT is the opposite of Queer theory LGBT

Original poster
rabbitwoman · 07/03/2021 08:30

The #nodebate stance worked very well for a while, didn't it? It was integral, because as soon as debate begins, it all falls apart...

For instance, of course gay conversion therapy is wrong but also doesn't work. It's impossible to change such an integral part of yourself such as your personality, of course. It's impossible to change your sexuality just as it is impossible to change your sex, so surely such a campaign to change your sex is by its nature conversion therapy?

And we all know that there is homophobia all around us, it gas taken many forms over the decades, but suddenly there's no such thing as homophobic parents who won't accept their gay children, would rather have transgender children?

OP posts:
Wondermule · 07/03/2021 08:57

@rabbitwoman

The #nodebate stance worked very well for a while, didn't it? It was integral, because as soon as debate begins, it all falls apart...

For instance, of course gay conversion therapy is wrong but also doesn't work. It's impossible to change such an integral part of yourself such as your personality, of course. It's impossible to change your sexuality just as it is impossible to change your sex, so surely such a campaign to change your sex is by its nature conversion therapy?

And we all know that there is homophobia all around us, it gas taken many forms over the decades, but suddenly there's no such thing as homophobic parents who won't accept their gay children, would rather have transgender children?

That is an amazingly good point!
Original poster
rabbitwoman · 07/03/2021 11:34

.... I also think mermaids, Stonewall et al have had the floor for long enough. Lots and lots of scrutiny and criticism of their ideology and practises to face.

If they had robust and rational arguments and reliable evidence they would not mind that at all....

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Original poster
rabbitwoman · 07/03/2021 11:35

No debate obviously really means can't debate so don't want to do it

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Original poster
rabbitwoman · 07/03/2021 11:36

And I think saying with one breath that you cannot change you sexuality then with the next saying you can change your sex is a big, big flaw....

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Zinco · 07/03/2021 12:06

If adults want "gay conversion therapy" let them have it. It doesn't matter whether it works or not, as long as you aren't making unproven claims for your business.

We mostly don't need to ban things for adults; just stick warnings on them and let people make their own choice.

gardenbird48 · 07/03/2021 12:09

And we all know that there is homophobia all around us, it gas taken many forms over the decades, but suddenly there's no such thing as homophobic parents who won't accept their gay children, would rather have transgender children

Absolutely. I think this is where the narrative that trans people suffer most in society from abuse and ostracism is necessary, backed up by the suicide stats that are not evidenced by fact. It reinforces the perception that a person can only admit to being transgender because there is no other option.

The challenge with this approach is that the extensive and generous government and social support and acquisition of extra privileges undermines the ‘oppressed’ narrative. So the perception of oppression has to become more extreme - hence criminalising (and having quite a high prosecution rate - 84% for hate crimes against 1% for rape) the misgendering of trans people.

I have worded this carefully to imply no disrespect to any individual- I believe that this comes from a place that disregards the needs and wants of the majority of transsexuals like Debbie Hayton.

If the trans lobby had any real interest in the welfare of trans people why are they excommunicating Debbie and people like Debbie from the trans community? Buck Angel, Fionne Orlander, SophieXY (Twitter) and many other trans people are being ignored, ostracised and vilified by the trans community for trying to get their voices heard - why would that be? Who has made the decision on which trans people are the only Ines who have a say? It doesn’t add up.

If I get banned from here I will use my time very wisely to do even more writing and direct lobbying and protecting my daughters rights and safeguarding- I will not give up on this - I inherited a very stubborn streak from my mother :-)

FindTheTruth · 07/03/2021 12:13

The #nodebate stance worked very well for a while, didn't it? It was integral, because as soon as debate begins, it all falls apart..

will we see a debate though? that's the question. who's taking part in this parliamentary debate? Clinicians resigning from the Tavistock said it felt like conversion therapy for gay children, they knew too many were sent on to puberty blockers that shouldn't have been. gender dysphoria according to mermaids and Stonewall = trans. where's the grass roots LGB voice in this debate in parliament house of commons or house of lords or across public bodies. many homosexual kids go through gender dysphoria when they realise they're attracted to the same-sex, so are gender non-conforming. Most gay or lesbian children resolve gender dysphoria after completing puberty. if the Stonewall version of conversion therapy became policy or law, it would be a hate crime to tell these kids they might not be trans but gay or lesbian.

Original poster
rabbitwoman · 07/03/2021 13:35

I hope there will be some nuance there on Monday.

But if not, there are now plenty of other voices in the debate who will speak up - and legal precident in the Tavistock judicial review to back them up. We won't just take it lightly. It cannot be snuck in through the back door now, just like self ID was stopped, because people are speaking, and being empowered to do so.

This is important work we are doing here! That's why they hate us so much and try to discredit us with silly nicknames like prosecco stormfront......

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FindTheTruth · 07/03/2021 13:45

I hope so too Rabbit. not expecting much but who knows we might get some truth. and yes the storm front analogy is an odd phrase isn't it?.

to me it feels like the voices on FWR (and WPUK and other groups) are building up making a difference. The fury at our voices. Voices like drops of water building up into a wave and a bigger wave and a Tsunami is coming. Fuckers.

Original poster
rabbitwoman · 07/03/2021 14:42

What I find really funny about stormfront is that it is also the name of a chain of apple resellers - there is one where I live, all their staff have Stormfront on their tee shorts and they sell mac books.

They would make a killing if they also sold prosecco.....

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BoreOfWhabylon · 07/03/2021 21:12

Who is behind this bill?

BoreOfWhabylon · 07/03/2021 21:13

Ah, sorry. I see it's not a bill but a petition. Do we know who is behind it?

SmokedDuck · 07/03/2021 21:30

All of these bills in various countries are Trojan Horses as far as I can see. It's not unimportant that what people are asked to imagine - the kind os stuff with electrodes and asking gay men to watch porn and so on - it already medically discredited and not used, and it's not even particularly commonly used in religious circles, especially outside of the US. There are professional sanctions against using it in many therapeutic settings already as well. Some elements, like forced therapy, are already entirely illegal.

Whenever something is suddenly being put into law, when it's already mostly out of favour, it's a good idea to ask if there is some other goal that isn't explicit.

And it is worrying that it could potentially be in conflict with the idea that in therapy, the patient is largely looking to define their own good outcomes. Which could include changing their own attitude or response to sexual attraction in some way.

Original poster
rabbitwoman · 07/03/2021 21:41

..... although it might also be worth considering that it could be OUR trohan horse?

In the Tavistock case, gender reassignment has already been reframed as conversion therapy, I have seen it in the witness statements and subsequent legal and political discourse.... It could be a huge own goal for whoever decided to put it on the table in the first place - because you bet they did not have the best interests of the gay community at heart when they did....

OP posts:
SmokedDuck · 07/03/2021 21:46

@rabbitwoman

..... although it might also be worth considering that it could be OUR trohan horse?

In the Tavistock case, gender reassignment has already been reframed as conversion therapy, I have seen it in the witness statements and subsequent legal and political discourse.... It could be a huge own goal for whoever decided to put it on the table in the first place - because you bet they did not have the best interests of the gay community at heart when they did....

That's an interesting idea.

Though I tend to shy away from the methods of the Greeks in this area. I'm not sure it's a social good overall.

Wondermule · 07/03/2021 21:51

@rabbitwoman

..... although it might also be worth considering that it could be OUR trohan horse?

In the Tavistock case, gender reassignment has already been reframed as conversion therapy, I have seen it in the witness statements and subsequent legal and political discourse.... It could be a huge own goal for whoever decided to put it on the table in the first place - because you bet they did not have the best interests of the gay community at heart when they did....

This is the approach that I think should be taken. TRAs are trying to smear the GC movement as right-wing, homophobic etc. I think we should all be throwing our full support behind banning conversion therapy, including cross sex hormones and puberty blockers. Now puberty blockers are not being routinely dished out, this seems a less controversial time to rule against them.
TheFleegleHasLanded · 08/03/2021 17:50

Just a bump to remind everyone that the Westminster Hall debate on conversion therapy starts at 6.15pm.

Parliament TV has a link to it (currently showing a different debate, the conversion therapy debate follows it.)

PurpleHoodie · 08/03/2021 17:52

Thanks

FindTheTruth · 08/03/2021 18:33

Crispin Blunt wants to Copy the Australian state of Victoria