Parliamentary debate on Monday to ban gay conversion therapy

[rabbitwoman]

Morning!

I have been keeping an eye out for a thread about this but can't see one....

Banning conversion therapy was a key manesfesto pledge by this government. Of course, gay conversion therapy is appalling and archaic and I am amazed its still legal in this country so of course I am all for a ban. The government have been slow off the mark, though.

A petition to ban conversion therapy reached 250000 so it is being raised in parliament on Monday. Great! I signed it myself.....

But then closer inspection of the wording of the petition raised alarm bells - it doesn't say gay conversion therapy, but LGBT therapy......

The recent decision to re evaluate the use of puberty blockers for children has caused a lot of anger and debate amongst many trans rights advocates, and I presume that the main thrust of the debate will be around the treatment of gender dysphoric children.

The Keira Bell case very much highlighted the problems with the Stonewall advocated approach of complete and immediate affirmation of transgender children and it would appear that actually, a range of treatments may be appropriate, including therapy and counselling that may question a child's gender distress and explore alternative causes, helping a child to successful outcomes that may not include transitioning.

In many places this has been reframed as 'conversion therapy'. I am very concerned that the thrust of the argument in parliament will be much less about the abhorrent practice of using psychological and physical torture to supress same sexual attraction, and more about outlawing a range of therapies for children presenting with gender dysphoria.

This has happened in Australia and the USA, and it looks like a call to folow suit here, which would raise concerns from a safeguarding viewpoint, as well as directly contradicting the findings of the recent Tavistock review. Making it illeagle to explore what could be alternative causes of gender dysphoria and heading straight to transition is a worrying treatment model.

There is also a lot of compelling evidence from the Tavistock review that gay children had been pushed into transition by homophobic parents - Marcus Evans, Susan Evans and Dr David Bell have all said this in public interviews.

The wording of this petition, though, seems to be a deliberate tactic to lump together perfectly reasonable and watchful therapies with abhorrent and sickening practises. I am concerned that the nuance will be missed by some and the progress that has been made since the review will be lost.

It is possible to believe that gay conversion therapy is wrong on every level, but also to think that hormones and surgery is not an appropriate pathway for many children currently identifying out of womanhood. Providing alternative treatments for gender dysphoric children should not be lumped in with gay conversion therapy.

I have tried to raise this on twitter and the replies I got seemed to be willfully refusing to see the difference.

I will be following the debate with interest, though!

A problem with data? Surely not. You do surprise me.....

I think no government would ever legislate to prevent a person who wanted to seek out help, for what that individual sees as issues.

I see this differently. I think the government would pass a law with such breadth that it does in fact legislate to prevent a person who wanted to seek out help but would say in the debate that of course the law wasn't to prevent a person who wanted to seek out help. Once the law was in place it would operate according to its stated purpose until applying the much broader scope became useful and then things would change.

We've see this kind of approach before, for example in the GRA and hate speech legislations.

There is a MoU around counselling services that identifies ‘talking therapies’ as conversion therapy and it is banned with regards to transgender treatment. That’s why there is so little mental health help for that particular population. James Caspian is one of the therapists that denounced this bad practice as the founding stone of trans affirmation model.
This should be kept in mind. Talking therapies for comorbidities are at the moment banned from the tools box for these professionals, despite a large proportion of trans people presumably suffering from MH.

However it is clear in my mind that the affirmation model washes away the homosexual. In deed, I’ve read a couple of times that homosexuality was the second best when there was no access to sex change.

I know, I know sex change is impossible but for some people wishing to be women surgery for presentation (mostly face and throat) together with performance is as good as. The people wishing to be males have a much tougher ride regarding their body hitting menopause almost immediately if there are no good endocrinologist on their case.

It’s so dark out there, despite the glitter and the rainbows.

Blimey. I am beginning to spy a rather massive conspiracy theory. I feel like I must be going mad.....

When I saw this on the Conservative manefesto to begin with, I did think it was odd. Only in that surely there was no such thing anymore? Definitely not state sanctioned anyway? And was it a big issue any more, enough to actually put in a manefesto, a big enough vote winner? But then I thought maybe I was being a bit naive, and if it is still being practised it must be banned...... Good thing.....

But it is not about gay conversion therapy at all, really, is it? And if we know that, if we understand that, surely the powers that be know? So how did it get on the manefesto? Who put it there? And did they know ultimately that it would actually be much more about gender identity than homosexuality.....

Jesus, WHO is it who wants to cause such awful damage to gay children?

But many professionals see puberty blockers and cross sex hormones as an insidious form of gay conversion therapy.

I may be imagining it but this formed part of the judgement which restricted puberty blockers in the Kiera Bell case.

Would that mean that puberty blockers could be banned if gay conversion tactics are outlawed?

Thank you OP. I also saw this and thought “I wonder....”

A couple of points to add to the discussion.

Why has it taken so long to have a discussion about outlawing such abhorrent practices such as gay conversion therapy ? And why is it happening now?

Secondly, surely there are cases where pushing children down the trans pathway is in fact a type of gay conversion therapy in itself??

Some people might be so homophobic that they would rather their children were the opposite sex than simply gay.

So how would such a law deal with the potential conflict between these two?

If a young person is considering both the possibility they are gay and the possibility they are trans.?

Exactly everything! I’m sure the one of the big worries from the therapists at GIDS that quit was homophobic parental influence- insisting their son couldn’t possibly be gay, he must be a girl

Amidst my twitter spats yesterday I did point out that evidence from the Tavistock review stated homophobic parents were pushing their gay children to conversion.

I was told this was Daily Mail bullshit but then I pointed them to interviews with whistle blowers - Marcus Evans and Sr David Bell - was told these were quacks and discredited charlitans.

Have Marcus Evans and Dr Bell been exposed as charlitans? Did I miss it?

These were gay men I was talking to, by the way, who I know personally - but have now blocked me....

I have known a couple of young women to suddenly start identifying as lesbian. Turns out they were abused/raped and 'being lesbian' was a reaction to this. Counsellors need the ability to gently probe and this is not the same as conversion.

Whrn you read accounts by adult transwomen of conversion therapies they underwent, they do sound abhorrent.

They concentrated on behaviours and preferences though - removing prefered toys and clothes; aversion techniques for men who wanted to wear make-up and dresses.

Lumping this in with counselling to explore why someone rejects their sexed body while accepting that there's nothing wrong with gender non-conforming presentation and preferences is wrong (bit exactly what they will try).

@everythingthelighttouches

Thank you OP. I also saw this and thought “I wonder....”

A couple of points to add to the discussion.

Why has it taken so long to have a discussion about outlawing such abhorrent practices such as gay conversion therapy ? And why is it happening now?

Secondly, surely there are cases where pushing children down the trans pathway is in fact a type of gay conversion therapy in itself??

Some people might be so homophobic that they would rather their children were the opposite sex than simply gay.

So how would such a law deal with the potential conflict between these two?

If a young person is considering both the possibility they are gay and the possibility they are trans.?

I think it could only be dealt with by outlawing the affirmation method and instead bringing in highly experienced psychologists to establish the likelihood of a child being gay as opposed to trans.

I expect a lot of the future trans kids would melt away if this happened though, and Mermaids would scale the Houses of Parliament in protest.

I’m sure if stonewall, mermaids & their acolytes have evidence that marcus Evans & Dr Bell are discredited charlatans they’ll be able to present it right?? I mean if it’s so well known it’ll be easy

Meanwhile their ongoing support for a doctor who has been struck off speaks volumes

Another one who would be very interested to hear evidence of them being charlatans.

..... I don't think evidence is their particular strong point....

@rabbitwoman

..... I don't think evidence is their particular strong point....

I think the ‘evidence’ is that dr bell was facing disciplinary proceedings before leaving the tavistock for... you guessed it... writing a report highlighting his concerns and speaking out 🙄

Couldn’t make this shit up could you?

.... and then of course 'don't believe anything you read on mumsnet'....

Except they call mumsnet Prosecco Stormfront.....

Amazing how they have managed to discredit a community of intelligent and qualified women (and men) who really only have the best interests of children at heart

so yes even praying is conversion therapy and should be banned and the 'consent' of the person concerned is highly manufactured.

I'm afraid I think we are into dangerous territory when we are dictating what can and cannot be prayed for.

This is without doubt a Trojan horse - the impact that similar laws have had in the USA and Australia has been devastating. Kids must be affirmed at all costs and possible co-morbidities or trauma are not even considered.

Wonder if the Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine will get involved. They are the real experts here. I desperately hope so although we have seen over and over again that ideology trumps evidence as you say OP. Worrying times.

@rabbitwoman

.... and then of course 'don't believe anything you read on mumsnet'....

Except they call mumsnet Prosecco Stormfront.....

Amazing how they have managed to discredit a community of intelligent and qualified women (and men) who really only have the best interests of children at heart

And mothers who love their children. It’s very rare that I have seen a post where I believe the mother truly doesn’t have their child’s best interests at heart, even if that meant their child took a route they really didn’t expect.

But it’s easier for the TRAs, who are mainly childless and simply cheerleading minors they don’t know on the internet, to paint us as hysterical middle class ‘mummies’.

Edge - if someone wants to privately pray for someone without their knowledge and in the privacy of their own home then as far as I am aware they are free to do so. I'd prefer they prayed that I won the lottery - but what ho. The difference is where someone is 'prayed for' or over publicly and with the intent of 'fixing their gayness' when the narrative is that such gayness is wrong, bad, Satanic or can be fixed. The root to this is homophobia.

segm.org/ Here's the link for those of you who feel an urgent need for some cool, clear, compassionate evidence as an antidote to the fact-free bludgeoning of one side of this debate.

@sleepyhead

Whrn you read accounts by adult transwomen of conversion therapies they underwent, they do sound abhorrent.

They concentrated on behaviours and preferences though - removing prefered toys and clothes; aversion techniques for men who wanted to wear make-up and dresses.

Lumping this in with counselling to explore why someone rejects their sexed body while accepting that there's nothing wrong with gender non-conforming presentation and preferences is wrong (bit exactly what they will try).

Affirmation of their gender nonconformity would have been ideal, wouldn't it? And so simple, and harmless. Trying to convert someone out of being gender nonconforming is always wrong, whether it's by suppression on the one extreme or altering a body to try to achieve conformity on the other.

So, is there a clear description of what 'conversion therapy' actually is? It sounds like it would be fairly straightforward to set out exactly what this involves. And fairly straightforward to differentiate between therapy that seeks to convert someone and all the other myriad types of therapy that seek to support and improve people's lives.

There is a MoU around counselling services that identifies ‘talking therapies’ as conversion therapy and it is banned with regards to transgender treatment. That’s why there is so little mental health help for that particular population. James Caspian is one of the therapists that denounced this bad practice as the founding stone of trans affirmation model.
This should be kept in mind. Talking therapies for comorbidities are at the moment banned from the tools box for these professionals, despite a large proportion of trans people presumably suffering from MH.

This is so cruel. It's effectively barring anyone who is not straight, or anyone who is gender non-conforming, from therapy. It's staggering.

There is a lot of court action happening next week.

Its actually quite influential what is happening in UK courts. Other nations politicians are picking up what is happening here. And using the court judgements in their open legal forums.

I just posted this on a separate thread, but this Spiked interview from Feb 2019 with psychotherapist James Caspian (who has been blocked from researching detransitioners) includes some very relevant points about regulations around conversion therapy:
www.spiked-online.com/2019/02/22/my-battle-with-the-transgender-thoughtpolice/