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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Clothing liberation

144 replies

Happinessisawarmcervix · 04/03/2021 22:10

I thought this was interesting - a supermarket worker is in the news for wearing a skirt to work because he wants to and it feels more comfortable, but is happy as a man and doesn’t want to transition.

As Eddie Izzard used to say - “these aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes.”

I hope this won’t get deleted as being about a specific person. I hope it opens the door for other men to defy gender stereotypes in clothing or in hobbies/interests/activities.

Link www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/beverley-tesco-worker-can-finally-5067962

OP posts:
Cwenthryth · 05/03/2021 10:05

It would be great if more men did it in a non-fetishy, comfort-based way. I can imagine skirts and dresses designed for men, eg for wearing in hot weather that weren’t about femininity as such but just about suiting men and adding to their wardrobes.
I’ve mentioned on here before that my DP does this on occasion - purple kilt teamed with band t-shirt and converse in summer - we are not Scottish nor in Scotland! His summer look otherwise looks mainly like Kevin Smith. If there were other styles of skirts normalised for men he’d be there. I’m kinda proud when he does that tbh. I’d love high street clothing brands to be going for this too.

Liquorishtoffee · 05/03/2021 10:16

I don’t really understand people saying it’s a comfort thing.

I don’t don’t find skirts comfortable - they ride up when you sit down, long ones catch on things (and you flash your knickers to the whole tube carriage when jumping up quickly at your stop and catching your heel on the hem Blush), you can feel the prickly bus seat fabric on the back of your upper legs (yuk), lack of decent pocketage, lack of belt loops so you have to look for something that fits waist and hips...

WindyPudding · 05/03/2021 11:36

Depends on the skirt I suppose - I love a flowy maxi dress or skirt in summer - always with pockets (I often make clothes or if I buy something with no pockets, I put them in).

I would never wear a tight pencil skirt because I'd be uncomfortable and awkward, so that's not what I mean by comfort.

I kew an older bloke who used to wear a djellaba in summer - this is a white scottish man so not for cultural reasons or anything, just to keep cool. That's more the style I'm thinking of.this kind of thing (and at first google I stumbled across a hawt man who looks v masculine in his!)

Datun · 05/03/2021 11:43

@WindyPudding

I agree it’s bizarre and restrictive that wearing skirts/dresses is still not generally a thing for men - despite all the ones they’ve worn in the past like togas, and special categories that are deemed ok like kilts.

It would be great if more men did it in a non-fetishy, comfort-based way. I can imagine skirts and dresses designed for men, eg for wearing in hot weather that weren’t about femininity as such but just about suiting men and adding to their wardrobes.

I'm guessing it doesnt happen because of widespread sexism. Wearing clothes designed for the sex which is 'lesser than'. It's just not seen as aspirational.

Kilts are designed for men, so the punching down aspect doesn't apply.

DisgustedofManchester · 05/03/2021 11:45

According to Blanchard he's AGP.

Liquorishtoffee · 05/03/2021 13:16

I prefer shorts or linen/cotton trousers when it’s really hot. Otherwise you get sweaty legs...

MissBarbary · 05/03/2021 13:37

@Liquorishtoffee

I don’t really understand people saying it’s a comfort thing.

I don’t don’t find skirts comfortable - they ride up when you sit down, long ones catch on things (and you flash your knickers to the whole tube carriage when jumping up quickly at your stop and catching your heel on the hem Blush), you can feel the prickly bus seat fabric on the back of your upper legs (yuk), lack of decent pocketage, lack of belt loops so you have to look for something that fits waist and hips...

Do we really need to have this point made yet again?

Why is the idea that not everyone finds exactly the same type of clothing comfortable or uncomfortable so difficult for some of you to understand?

I can't bear wearing trousers. They are uncomfortable, restrictive and constricting. They aren't warm in cold weather as socks under trousers aren't nearly as cosy as 100 denier cotton tights under a heavy skirt and they aren't nearly as good for keeping cool in warm weather.

MissBarbary · 05/03/2021 13:41

I'm guessing it doesnt happen because of widespread sexism. Wearing clothes designed for the sex which is 'lesser than'. It's just not seen as aspirational

The attitudes of some posters on here won't help either.

"Anyone can wear anything!" is the mantra- until they do, and other than the very small number of men who get an approved tick, then the analysis of suspicious motives and negative criticism starts.

Datun · 05/03/2021 13:49

@MissBarbary

I'm guessing it doesnt happen because of widespread sexism. Wearing clothes designed for the sex which is 'lesser than'. It's just not seen as aspirational

The attitudes of some posters on here won't help either.

"Anyone can wear anything!" is the mantra- until they do, and other than the very small number of men who get an approved tick, then the analysis of suspicious motives and negative criticism starts.

That's because of cross dressing though.
Cwenthryth · 05/03/2021 14:04

I don’t think it’s appropriate that we publicly opine on what a specific individual’s motivation is, for sure.

However I also don’t think it’s appropriate to admonish women expressing discomfort and being exposed to (what they may experience as) public displays of autogynephilia, either. It is ok not to be ok with that. It is not about anyone’s ‘attitude’, and I don’t believe we have to accept public autogynephilia in order to de-gender everyone’s clothing choices.

WhereYouLeftIt · 05/03/2021 14:08

@MissBarbary

23:13MsFogi

I bet man-skirts have not only pockets but are wide enough to stride along rather than totter for fear of ripping the centre seam

Eh ? Really? What nonsense- skirts come in all sorts of shapes, styles, fabrics. You personally might not like them but do you have to make things up to justify it?

Skirts do indeed come in all shapes MissBarbary, but the article referenced in the OP concerned uniform skirts, skirts where you have zero choice in what shape they are. Any uniform skirt I have been issued with has been uniformlyGrin A-line, and I defy anyone to run for a train in one of those and not rip the damned thing - as I did several timesSad.
Happinessisawarmcervix · 05/03/2021 14:30

@Cwenthryth

I don’t think it’s appropriate that we publicly opine on what a specific individual’s motivation is, for sure.

However I also don’t think it’s appropriate to admonish women expressing discomfort and being exposed to (what they may experience as) public displays of autogynephilia, either. It is ok not to be ok with that. It is not about anyone’s ‘attitude’, and I don’t believe we have to accept public autogynephilia in order to de-gender everyone’s clothing choices.

Perhaps naively I thought it was helpful to see a change from the usual position of “I like to wear skirts so I must be a woman.”

Apologies to TinselAngel and anyone else who has been made uncomfortable by the thread.

OP posts:
TinselAngel · 05/03/2021 14:38

I've been robustly debating this on Twitter all morning but I can't say anything else here in case I get banned.

Cwenthryth · 05/03/2021 15:00

When it comes to uniforms, personally I think a unisex approach is probably the most helpful in terms of feminism, with the exception of necessary tailoring differences to accommodate body shapes.

Cwenthryth · 05/03/2021 15:01

Tinsel I think it’s enough just to say that, if people are interested to read more they can follow up there, and no one can be accused of posting anything NITS here!

SmokedDuck · 05/03/2021 15:23

@Cwenthryth

I don’t think we can analyse Jeffrey’s words too much (he does mention liking heels, getting his nails done and wigs) in terms of then theorising what his individual motivation may be as that wouldn’t be an appropriate thing to do and risk deletion. However I do respect Tinsel’s experience and caution.

Widening out the discussion a little to the topic in general. Do we celebrate women wearing trousers, or masculine suit tailoring etc? Did we celebrate women wearing trousers when it was the first women were openly doing that just because they felt more comfortable and practical? Was the focus “these women are wearing men’s clothes!” in the same way that cases like this often are as “man wears women’s clothes” rather than “man just happens to wear skirt”. The difference to me is - is the focus on breaking down barriers and the clothing item becoming unisex; or is the focus on the transgression of one sex wearing the other sex’s clothing. With the former barrier-breaking there tends to be a feeling of fighting against traditional restrictions for everyone’s freedom, everyone can access this clothing item; with the latter, there tends to be an atmosphere of celebrating an individual’s quirk of going against the norm whilst cementing that it is and should be the norm and just this individual is different. Does that make sense??? Is the focus on the act itself, or the controversy/taboo nature of it. If a skirt was just a skirt, rather than a woman’s skirt, it may not be quite as attractive to some men to wear.

Billy Porter is a fabulous man to listen to on this topic. He has said some very interesting things about clothing, gender, misogyny and homophobia etc when being interviewed about his well publicised outfits, sorry I don’t have any links to hand but well worth seeking out if you haven’t seen them before. Plus he is just a beautiful person.

Here's a question - is it realistic, or particularly desirable, to expect that all clothing will be/should be unisex?

There have been places where it was, effectively, but typically that has been related to there being not much choice about fabric, sewing technology, and so on, so everyone wears more or less the same thing. Most people only had a few items of clothing, too.

Whereas we live in a society where there are a lot of choices and most people have a lot of different clothes.

I can't help but think that if skirts for men became common there would still be other differences between men's and women's styles and cothing, or new ones would develop.

MissBarbary · 05/03/2021 15:27

@Cwenthryth

I don’t think it’s appropriate that we publicly opine on what a specific individual’s motivation is, for sure.

However I also don’t think it’s appropriate to admonish women expressing discomfort and being exposed to (what they may experience as) public displays of autogynephilia, either. It is ok not to be ok with that. It is not about anyone’s ‘attitude’, and I don’t believe we have to accept public autogynephilia in order to de-gender everyone’s clothing choices.

Hmm, I'm afraid I'm just seeing hypocrisy here.

The line between "wear what you want! wear make-up" and autogynophile seems terribly easy to cross over.

This particular man is wearing the frumpiest outfit imaginable but the attribution of suspicious motives are being made by some of you.

TheBuffster · 05/03/2021 15:38

Interesting, but how many of those differences are necessary.
I offer two examples: firstly, we dress ds relatively gender neutral and pick from both girls and boys sections. However, it's becoming increasingly apparent that girls clothes are thin and poorly made compared to boys. Although the bright colours are tempting, economically and environmental wise we are better off going for boys as it lasts and is less flimsy. I'm pretty sure that it has nothing to do with sexed body difference and everything to do with capitalism.
Similarly with my clothes. DH clothes can withstand a tumble drying and hides his bumpy bits. Whereas even plain women's t shirts cling to every bump and curve. There's no practical reason for this and I understand some women might want figure hugging stuff but it seems to be the default, almost like we're obligated to 'set out our wares'.

SmokedDuck · 05/03/2021 15:56

@TheBuffster

Interesting, but how many of those differences are necessary. I offer two examples: firstly, we dress ds relatively gender neutral and pick from both girls and boys sections. However, it's becoming increasingly apparent that girls clothes are thin and poorly made compared to boys. Although the bright colours are tempting, economically and environmental wise we are better off going for boys as it lasts and is less flimsy. I'm pretty sure that it has nothing to do with sexed body difference and everything to do with capitalism. Similarly with my clothes. DH clothes can withstand a tumble drying and hides his bumpy bits. Whereas even plain women's t shirts cling to every bump and curve. There's no practical reason for this and I understand some women might want figure hugging stuff but it seems to be the default, almost like we're obligated to 'set out our wares'.
I think most aren't necessary, for the most part they are stylistic though I think fast fashion doesn't impact so much on men's and boy's styles.

But in generally, I think people like to differentiate people by sex. There was some research a while ago that suggested that the more similar women's and men's lives were in terms of things like jobs, social roles, etc, the more people tend to emphasise differences in things like clothing.

There is something psychological there worth thinking about, it seems to me. Human beings noticed sexed bodies very readily, because it's so important to survival of the species. And maybe that also extends to us being interested in them, noting them, and so on.

I tend to think it is better to avoid separating men and women according to social role, even if it means accepting that people will play out their interest in sex through other cultural mediums. Clothes just aren't that important.

TheBuffster · 05/03/2021 16:05

It's frustrating though because women are basically shoehorned into fast fashion for a number of reasons. Firstly, our clothes aren't as well made so we're constantly having to replace them. Second, the figure hugging aspect means go up just one size and you have to update your whole wardrobe. Finally women are expected to have more variation, particularly in professional capacity.

All in all it adds up to a hell of a lot of landfill!

Laeta · 05/03/2021 16:14

why is it always a skirt, heels, makeup?

And why not? Anyone can wear what they want. Back when I was a teenager this wouldn't even had made the news. Well not quite true, it made the news when I wore trousers to secondary school!!

You look at punks from the 70's I bet you can't tell who was male or who was female.

I used to look like a boy as a young teenager with my pixie boots, short hair and donkey jacket.

Hopefully this fashion of long hair for girls goes soon. ASAP. Once we get to a more gender neutral fashion again, I feel thing may be better. As long as we haven't lost ALL our rights by then!

Never thought I'd ever say this but "Bring back the Purdy haircut!!"

Doyoumind · 05/03/2021 16:15

It's about motivation though. If your motivation is to wear a skirt regardless of whether skirts are seen as women's clothing, it's different from wearing a skirt because it's seen as women's clothing.

I really don't care what people wear. There's no hypocrisy. But as we don't know the exact motivations for sure, it makes sense to be cautious in our celebration of it.

Datun · 05/03/2021 16:29

Hmm, I'm afraid I'm just seeing hypocrisy here.

The line between "wear what you want! wear make-up" and autogynophile seems terribly easy to cross over.

This particular man is wearing the frumpiest outfit imaginable but the attribution of suspicious motives are being made by some of you.

That's because 'frumpy' is often part of the enjoyment. It's not all about traditional ideas of sexy.

But what I really don't understand is what other motivation you think women, particular feminists, have here?

You say it's hypocrisy. Do you think there is another reason women question the motivation? Do you think women are trying to ring fence women's clothing for a purpose?

Personally I think it's usually fairly to see the difference between someone busting gender norms and cocking a snook at stereotypical clothing, and someone getting off on it.

JaneJeffer · 05/03/2021 16:41

Hopefully this fashion of long hair for girls goes soon. Why? I was hoping long haired men would make a comeback during lockdown but they all seem to have clippers Sad

lazylinguist · 05/03/2021 16:44

I've often wondered why more English men don't wear skirts, especially in summer.

Because whether you like it or not, clothing, accessories, hairstyles etc are still very much divided according to sex, and most men do not want to look like a woman, nor do most women want to look like a man.

I absolutely think people should be able to wear whatever they like and that clothing differences between the sexes are in no way a necessary thing, but we are all products of our culture and upbringing, and what we find appealing or attractiveis very much rooted in that. Dh would look bloody silly (to me and to him) in a skirt.

I've no idea of the motivation of the man in the article, but tbh public autogynephilia makes me feel queasy.